To what extent is your body image impacting your day to day decisions? Right? Can you leave the house without getting ready? Can you engage in your activities or in things that you feel passionately about, or things that feel important to you? Regardless of what your body shape or size is, regardless of how you look that day, regardless of x, y, z goals that society may tell you you need to achieve before you can do anything else.
With me today is Samantha Olson. Samantha is a clinical mental health counselor who specializes in helping women with disordered eating patterns. She has worked at the Center of Change since 2014, which is a Utah based counseling center for eating disorders. She is passionate about treating eating disorders, anxiety, depression and trauma and is currently the program director at the Cottonwood Heights location.
We are going to dive into the intricacies of navigating. How do we stay focused on our health goals without letting it have any negative effects on our mental health? This is a really difficult and nuanced conversation, but it applies to so many women. If you have struggled with wanting to have an outcome in your body, like wanting to feel better or lose weight, but when you do so, you become a little bit fixated on it, or develop some unhealthy patterns with food or with your body, then this is going to be a really valuable conversation for you.
Honestly, I think it's a valuable conversation for all of us. So if you or someone you know has struggled with fixating on food or food noise or disordered eating patterns, then please listen and share this episode. I think a lot of us, especially women in this culture, are going to carry some kind of standard of what it means to look good, feel good, and, and so considering, how does that impact what you're able to do in a day or not able to do?
Samantha. Welcome in. Thanks for coming on our episode today. I think it's going to be a good conversation.
Yes. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited.
We are so happy to have you on, because this is a really important topic we're reviewing today and also a very sensitive topic. So we are going to be talking about food and body image and relationship with that and also disordered eating patterns. And we'll touch a little bit on eating disorders. So I want to mention that as a trigger alert, if someone feels like this is a really complicated subject for them, that they know their boundaries, they know how to listen and in a mental space where they're safe. But I think it's so important because it's so far reaching.
So I'll leave that disclaimer there. And if people feel like they need to adjust their listening, then I encourage them to do that. Absolutely. Well, first, Samantha, you work for a clinic that serves people with eating disorders and disordered eating patterns called the center for change. Well, you start by telling us a little bit about your journey of how you came to be so passionate about this, and then we'll dive in to really what we can do about this.
Yeah. For sure. So I've worked at Center for Change for going on 11 years now. Eating disorders were just always kind of appealing for me going through high school, having my own history with some disordered patterns, going into college and learning more about psychology and eating disorders in general. It was something that I definitely knew I wanted to explore as I became a therapist and as I worked at center for a change, first as line staff and then moving into a therapy position and now a clinical director, I'm very passionate about serving the community that we serve.
Eating disorders do not discriminate. And so it is very, I would say prominent in our community. And that's something that I just really believe in is helping those who struggle. And I really love it. And I've become very passionate about it through the years. And the more I learn, the more passionate I become. So I'm happy to be here to share some of my perspectives and things that I've learned working with this population.
When I worked as an ObGyn, I took care of all women. And, you know, full disclosure, like I didn't ask people if they had an eating disorder. I probably had less than five patients over ten years that came in and said there were any medical problems? Yes, I have an eating disorder. But now in my current practice, I actively ask most of my patients, if not all of my patients.
Do you have any history of disordered eating patterns or any concerns with food? And I have been shocked at the number of women that say yes, and it's well over half, 70, 80% have some amount of disordered relationship with food. Where do you think that comes from? First of all, how do we get to this place, you know, as human beings, as animals.
This should have worked really well, right? We should be hungry and then we should eat, and then we should be done. Where and how did this get so confused? Yeah, that is such a great question. It is shocking the amount of people who are impacted by disordered eating. And I think a lot of it comes from how immersed our culture is and diet culture.
So when I say diet culture, I'm talking about beliefs around food, beliefs around exercise, beliefs around bodies, and just the way that we have idealized certain standards when it comes to those things and ways that we have put down, you know, other, other bodies. Or if people exercise or don't exercise a certain way, if people eat or don't eat a certain way.
I think we have created a lot of ideals that are tied to morality, self-worth, worthiness of acceptance, or even being attractive. So I think that we have most of us, I would say, grown up in a culture that teaches that, which means we're learning it from our parents because our parents learn it from somewhere else. We're learning it from the media, we're learning it from social media, we're learning it from so many different facets.
And even, you know, especially in Utah, I was looking at some of the numbers this morning to see the latest research. We are, I think, number six in the nation for plastic surgery. Not one, not a number. You want to be at the top. No, no we're very high up there. And so even the standards of what does it mean to be a woman.
What does it mean to be an attractive woman or a desirable woman? We are one of the top in the nation for what it looks like to be attractive? And so even when it comes to things such as plastic surgery or what it means to age, right? We've created all of these standards. And of course, one of the ways that we've been taught to control how we look is through our food.
And so why wouldn't we be set up to be disordered in the ways that we're viewing our bodies and viewing food viewing exercise? So it hasn't become as simple as, you know, when you're hungry and stop when you're full because of all the messaging that we get. You mentioned at the beginning that talking about body image, and so much of body image is wrapped up in everything that you just said.
Will you tell us a little bit more about the idea of body image, and how do we work with this? How should we be approaching this? Because I think there are some times where if I want my body to be shaped a certain way, that may not always be bad, right? If I say like, oh, I'd love to look a certain way sometimes, I mean, it's not always bad.
There are definitely times when we have aesthetic preferences where we look in the mirror and say, I'd prefer if I did this right. So how do we differentiate between when there's a healthy desire for what we want from our body, versus maybe starting to trigger some unhealthy cascades of feelings towards our body and not that body relationship? It's a great question, something that I want to build some awareness about as we're having this conversation is severity, right.
So like you said, what's wrong with wanting to look a certain way? Or some people think that when I talk about body acceptance, it's not getting ready in the morning, right? Yeah. And I think the reality is, body care is still a part of body acceptance. And so I would like to touch on maybe three different things.
So body acceptance, body trust and body neutrality. So those are three kinds of key things that I think can be actionable as we're working on our relationship with our own bodies. So considering the severity of things, I would have people think about to what extent is, is your body image impacting your day to day decisions? Right.
Can you leave the house without getting ready? Can you engage in your activities or in things that you feel passionately about, or things that feel important to you, regardless of what your body shape or size is, regardless of how you look that day, regardless of x, y, z goals that society may tell you you need to achieve before you can do anything else, right.
So I think that impact is important to consider. I think a lot of us, especially women in this culture, are going to carry some kind of standard of what it means to look good, feel good. And, so considering, how does that impact what you're able to do in a day or not able to do, something that I hear a lot from women that I work with is, well, I can't do XYZ until I look like ABC, right?
And that if we consider that mindset of how my body is holding me back and how we put that kind of pressure in clothes, how holding me back. Yes, exactly. And so being able to still live according to your core values, being able to live authentically regardless of your current body state because bodies are always changing, right? As a doctor, you see that especially working with, you know, Nancy and.
Yes. Yeah. And so I was even talking to a client who is currently pregnant . Let's not worry about you quote unquote rebounding. Yeah. After pregnancy, let's focus on wow, look at what your body can do. Your body is growing a baby. And then it's going to, you know, feed that baby. And then you're going to raise that baby.
Body shape and size at that time doesn't really matter. Right? If you're able to live authentically according to your core values. So the impact of body image or, you know, negative or positive body image, it's something that I think is important to consider. Yeah, I think we see that in other mental health too. Right? If you say like, what's the difference between someone who's sad versus someone who has depression or what's the difference between someone who's anxious about something versus someone who has anxiety?
And correct me if I'm wrong because you're in the mental health world more than I am. But one of the big differentiating factors is how it affects your life, right? If you're anxious about something and you go about your life doing everything, then, then fine. That's normal for us to have certain ranges of emotion. But if you're so anxious that it keeps you from living your life, you can't leave the house or you can't go to an event, then that becomes a mental health disorder.
And the same is true then with the relationship with our body is we're all going to have thoughts about our body and that's just a fact there. Like I think it's unrealistic for us to try to aim for the point where we don't think about our body, you know, and the way that our body looks, we're going to look in the mirror and we're going to say, that's what my body looks like.
But when it becomes a disorder or an unhealthy relationship is when it really inhibits what we're trying to do. So I appreciate that explanation. Absolutely. Where does the function fit in there? Because obviously if you have, you know, a weight or a pain issue or something like that where the function is really inhibited, where you say, like, I can't even get my body to work the way that I want it to.
How do we approach where does function fit into this idea of body acceptance, body trust, body neutrality? Where is the function in there of how we should be thinking about our bodies? Yeah, yeah, I and I think everyone is different when it comes to body function. Right. And the piece that I would ask and I guess part of my disclaimer in talking about all of this is can we approach our own individual body image or relationship with food or exercise with just a curiosity?
You know, when I say curiosity, it's just trying to be objective and, you know, thinking in an open manner, without automatically putting judgments on it. And so I do want to also qualify. Everyone is different. And so looking at body function, I think a hope is that we're all kind of functioning, you know, according to our set ability, according to our set realistic expectations.
And sometimes that doesn't happen with things like sickness or chronic pain pregnancy. Right. And so I think part of the body acceptance piece is accepting part of a body as being imperfect. Yeah. And is being limited. Right. I talked to people who are or maybe addicted to exercise or who over exercise is usually how we refer to it.
And there's this expectation that they don't need rest days, or that if they're taking a rest day, there's active rest, meaning they're still exercising, or if they are exercising, they should be able to continue throughout their day without being sore or being tired. And so I think a part that I would ask people to be curious about for themselves is like, are your expectations realistic?
A body acceptance piece is accepting limitations, accepting that our bodies also while they can be strong, get tired, or that even if we are quote unquote healthy, we can still get sick or that we can still struggle with, you know, other things that come up like chronic pain, fatigue, things like that. And so part of that body acceptance piece and body trust is trusting that our bodies will send us signals and messages that are actually protective.
Because I think often in a disordered mindset or with disordered expectation, and we reject our bodies in the sense that, oh, you are my enemy. And so in order to control you, I need to, you know, start doing these behaviors or start acting or living this way so that you are the shape, size or whatever, whatever thing you may feel.
And with that, and so we start rejecting a lot of, I think, natural body cues that are actually meant to help us and save us, right. There's a great book called The Body Is Not an Apology by Sonya Renee Taylor, and she talks about sickness in the book of When We Get Sick, we may get irritated because we get congested, our throat hurts, we're tired.
We want to be doing all these things. And so in that way, we start to view our body as our enemy because it's like, why do you feel like this when really what's happening? Our body is fighting infections, telling us to slow down. Yes, yes. And so I think that body trust and body acceptance pieces are accepting like, hey, my body actually does want to show up with me.
It is, it is my, you know, companion. And I think sometimes that that is a piece that people struggle with, especially when it feels like our body has betrayed us by getting sick or, you know, going, going through things that we just weren't expecting. This was a huge point, and I wanted to bring it up. So I'm glad you're going.
There is this idea I deal with a lot of patients with chronic illness, and definitely somewhere along the way, most of them lose trust in their body. Most of them start to detach from their body and disconnect a little bit, honestly, because it's I mean, they're not doing it intentionally. It just feels like the best way to survive.
And sometimes that starts with just like pain, you know, you get pain in your right knee and then later the next week you get pain in your left toe. And, you know, it just always seems like your body is getting in your way somehow. Like you keep trying to do things and the body is getting in the way.
So people do develop this relationship of sort of frustration at first and then sometimes total disconnect. And I think that can certainly happen with disordered eating patterns of any kind because we just, like you mentioned, learn to ignore those. Cuz like I said, as kids, people, we would have been hungry, we would have eaten and then we would have been done eating.
And now we have this really complicated relationship with food where a lot of us don't even recognize our hunger cues and our full cues. So how do we go about learning to trust our bodies? How do we go about reconnecting that relationship? I really see it as a two person relationship, almost. It's like our brain and our body, and we have to almost view our body as an entity with compassion and say, oh, there you are.
What are you trying to tell me? How do you approach rebuilding that connection between our brain and our body? Yeah, yeah. And again, I say this, everyone's different and I think that we are getting better as a society, as a culture of, I would say like qualifying mental health as valid. Right. But I think historically there was a very significant stigma around you not get help, don't talk about that.
Yeah. Yeah. And now I think especially this is a way that I think social media can be positive if people are talking about it more and people are recognizing like, oh, we are kind of disordered. And now we talk about bodies and how we talk about food, and movement. And so I think being able to I think part of that body trust is recognizing exactly what you said.
The mind is a part of that. And so recognizing that if you are seeking to be physically healthy, there is a piece of mental health as well of, you know, go see a therapist, start meditating, go see a dietitian who is, you know, educated about disordered eating and start resourcing yourself. I think we are living in a current culture where there is no excuse for not seeking out resources, even if you know, wherever you fall on the scale, there's still access to free resources.
There's podcasts just like this. There's, you know, YouTube videos. There are pages to follow that can help build up that idea that we deserve to be holistically healthy, not just physically healthy, not just mentally healthy, not just, you know, all the other pieces sexual, spiritual, all those pieces that tie in. We can also practice, you know, being mentally healthy and seeking resources for that.
So I think being able to build that awareness first would be the first step towards how, you know, to answer your question, how do I start to build up that body trust again if I've been disconnected with my body? Are you aware of that? Do you know that? And if you are becoming aware, how can you start to resource yourself towards reconnecting with your body?
There's so many physical practices tied to yoga or, you know, just mindful movement. That's also a way to reconnect with the body and it's a process. I think also, again, coming back to expectations, be gentle. Let yourself ease back into that relationship. I like how you're talking about it being a relationship, you know, between brain and body. I think building that relationship with your body is also like building a relationship with a person.
Exactly. Of, you know, how are you investing time and energy into yourself and into rebuilding that relationship? You're getting to know maybe your body again, for people who have been pregnant and then not pregnant and maybe coming out of like that time of nursing and just really being with your child 24 seven like, who are you after that?
And what is your relationship with your body? Because I think after being pregnant and kind of being a vessel for another body. Yeah. Rebuilding that relationship with your own body as, as it's an independent body. Right. And so I think there are a lot of layers to how you can start reconnecting to your body if you've been disconnected. Yeah.
I love hearing you talk about that. As you're talking, I'm thinking about all of the different ways that actually we can connect to our body. And I, I've not really connected these things in the past, but I think about, you know, as we deal with even sexual health of reconnecting to the body and just being aware of the sensations you feel or eating, you know, the the health around eating and noticing, like, I feel hungry.
What does that actually feel like? Well, I feel like there's bubbles in my stomach or I feel like a pit, like it's getting sucked in or, you know, what does hunger feel like to me? What does satiated feel like to me? What does full feel like to me? And so I mentioned, like I, I haven't really connected these dots of the difference between feeling our bodies in physical sensations around like intimacy or sexuality, but also feeling our body around food and also feeling our body around exercise.
What does it feel like when I do yoga? What does it feel like when I dance? What does it feel like when I do strength training? Like all of these different aspects we can use to reconnect with our body so if we find that one is particularly difficult for us, like for some women, it's sexuality. I hope this makes sense.
I'm not just like jumping around here, but if if food is a really big issue for us that we can't even begin to reconnect to our body around food, maybe we can start by reconnecting to our body in a way that feels safer to us, maybe around intimacy, or maybe around movement, or maybe around even a body scan when we're laying in bed at night.
And that's one of the exercises we do for the nervous system to get out of fight or flight is to just focus on the here and now to say, what are my toes feeling like right now? What does the ball of my foot feel like right now? What is the arch of my foot, the heel, the calf, the knee?
What does it feel like right now? And by bringing presents to those different body parts, we just start to increase that communication of that relationship between my brain and my body. And then the body can continue to tell us things. And I think that can be, like I said, I'm just putting this together that I think we can use the areas that feel stronger to us to retrain that connection and bring that together and then utilize that in those areas that may feel weaker for us.
Absolutely, I love that. Well, let's talk a little bit more then about body Image. We talked about maybe it's formed by early childhood experiences or other experiences that we have growing up or social expectations. How changeable is that body image because it's deeply ingrained in our brains, right. This idea of how I am, how can we actually change that?
Or are we actually trying to just change the way we interact with that? Does that make sense? Yes, absolutely. It does make sense. And I feel like I would not be doing the work that I did if I did not think the body image was changeable. Yeah. I think I really want to validate that. A lot of people who go into a space where they are actively working toward body acceptance, body trust, body neutrality, it can feel like we're swimming against the current.
Yeah. Sometimes because I could probably leave this office and drive on any freeway mean road and see all of these signs in advertising for how I can change my appearance next. What is the next thing that I can invest in to make myself look, quote unquote, better or more aligned with the beauty standards? And so I think I really want to validate that it's a tough journey to begin.
And if you're not there yet, that's okay. So I want to throw that out there for people. But yes, I definitely think it's changeable. And there are, again, different life experiences that people are coming in with. I think we are very heavily impacted by our culture, by our family culture, by our community and this could be a part of, like any group that we may be a part of.
Right. And, so I think considering the different intersectionality is first and foremost, if there is trauma as, for example, tied to your body, that may be a place to start. It's trauma work, right? If there are things that have happened with your body or to your body that you need to address, that may be a start.
And some of that. And that's where I think, you know, the conversation around disordered eating or eating disorders can get tricky. Are you stable enough to do that work physically, mentally, medically even? Right. And and then there's other ways, I think is where if I can kind of back it up and go back to just basics of a foundation, how is your awareness, how how are you noticing, you know, how how your body may or may not be impacting your ability to engage in your life?
And so I took a few notes of just things to be aware of, that some people don't even recognize are a part of their body image. For example, time or energy spent in front of the mirror. How long are you looking in the mirror? And when you're looking in the mirror, are you picking apart your body? Are you just getting ready when you get dressed in the morning?
How many different times are you changing? And if we consider your clothing, are you wearing clothing that fits? Are you allowing yourself to buy clothing that fit your body today, or are you kind of. You have maybe some outfits or some things that feel comfortable, but you have other clothing in your closet that you're aspiring to, right? So even like those ways, I think, one of the questions that you presented to me, before the podcast was, are, are women even aware of their negative body image?
And I think, again, building that awareness of how, how do my feelings about my body impact what I'm doing and even the time and energy that I'm spending into thinking or acting around my body, food and movement. And so, you know, I think to consider. Yeah. What are you? How are you actually engaging with your body?
Those are some things that I think some women are just not even aware of as part of, like, quote unquote negative body image. Yeah. Yeah, it just feels true to them. Yeah. It doesn't feel like it's positive or negative. It's just like, yeah, it feels true to them. I think one of the things that's really difficult, too, is the self-talk that we have in our brains as we're looking at ourselves in the mirror.
And I think about the impact of social media on this, where and really not just social media, but how visual we are now. Right? You think back in the day, people had like one photo of them taken ever. And we look now at social media and especially our kids, we might have but millions of photos taken of our kids.
But you know, as we look at ourselves, if I take a photo, if I look at a photo of myself and I'm leaning funny and I have a roll, you know, coming over my side, I'm going to be like, oh, gross, don't use that picture like I want to use. Let me take it again and then I'll, I'll set up really tall so that roll doesn't, doesn't fit in there.
And we see this with social media. Right. You see some people calling it bringing it to the surface where they say, what do they say, like the actual photo. And then Instagram, right where they're showing the comparison there. And that's where it starts feeling really difficult, because when we look at it, if I look at a picture and I say, well, yeah, I want the picture that doesn't have the role or I want the picture that doesn't have my wrinkles, or I want the picture that doesn't have me making a weird face and you've already mentioned this a little bit.
I think what you mentioned before was if it's just a passing thought, then we're going to have those passing thoughts. But if it's like I do not have pictures taken of me in case they might have a role, obviously that's the extreme. But in terms of social media and filters and perfected versions of people that we see online and then work, comparing that to me, not filtered and not perfected and just standing in front of my mirror, how do we just make sense of that of of even what is reality?
Because I think it's very skewed. I think it's very altered now with how visual we are, how many photos of everyone there are, and how easy it is to alter those photos, it can leave the rest of us looking at our unaltered and unfiltered selves feeling really bad. Yeah, yeah. Yes. And I think this is an important thing to talk about, especially living in Utah.
Again, if we touch back to that, there's a very appearance based expectation in Utah. And it's not even just how do I look, but how am I presenting to my community? What are people thinking about me? What do they believe about me and my family? I think there is a very kind of perfectionistic lifestyle and a lot of parts of Utah.
And so I think even just acknowledging that of how, how am I showing up here and what's, what's really valuable to me. And when I say values, I'm not talking about, you know, religion, I'm not talking about belief systems. I'm talking about what to your core feels important. What is your compass? What is bringing you purpose? What is bringing you fulfillment?
And if so, your your example of a picture being taken instead of focusing on oh, is that what I really look like? Or I can't believe you got that angle of me. Can we retake it? What are you trying to memorialize? Right. So refocusing on what was the point of this picture in the first place. Right. And so that's where it's difficult, maybe with family pictures where you're paying a professional to capture, you know, those very specific memories of your family at that time or you at that time.
But I think being able to refocus on what are my personal values and what do I want to remember about this? And can I acknowledge that? Yes, there is this perfectionistic stance on social media, and is that what I want my page to be? Is that how I really want to show up? And for some people, yes.
Right. For some people especially, I think in Utah, there's a very particular community of like influencers and ways of life and that that is a part of it. And also considering how self-care is community care. So if I can show up and show that I accept my body as it is today, how does that give permission to the person next to me to also accept their body and to just be here?
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I would say, you know, we've been talking about building a relationship with your body, recognizing what your body does for you if your body is a vessel. And again, there's these natural things like aging. There's these natural things like maybe slowing down. There's these natural things of energy changes. Like there are just realistic pieces of having a body.
What does it do for you every day? What was something that your body did for you today that you enjoyed? Could you hug your child or your partner, or were you able to laugh with someone? Do you have something that you know tasted really good or that just felt good in your body? Were you able to walk somewhere?
Right. So kind of refocusing on body function versus, you know, how your body looks? There's these researchers, Lexi and Lindsey Kite. And they've written a book called More Than a Body. And they talk a lot about that, of how the body is an instrument, not an ornament. And I think a lot of women live with this expectation that we are meant to be ornaments.
We're meant to be viewed. How can we refocus on being instrumental? What is our body function? What are well and and when you say refocus, I think I'm envisioning, you know, rebalancing. Like, yes, maybe we are still going to still have some thoughts around being ornamental, like, I want to look a certain way and I care about that to some degree, but to what degree?
You know, and is that degree that we're putting the focus on it serving us or not serving us, versus how much can I focus on the function? And so picturing it like a scale tipping like, okay, so maybe I don't want that picture, you know, but of the whatever. But can I spend more time celebrating like I have babies and those little that pouch right there is from where it got stretched out from carrying those babies.
And that's where my belly isn't my day. Stacy says. It doesn't come together anymore, whatever the issue is. But can we at least give weighted time? Can we at least give equal time, if not more time, to the idea of gratitude and function and and just other thinking than the amount of time that we spend analyzing the wrinkle and the fold and the role and all of those things.
Like maybe we don't get rid of it completely, because that's probably unrealistic in our culture for most of us. But can we at least wait that time towards like, hey, look what I can do, I can do, I just did a 30 minute workout or I lifted heavier than I've lifted so far. Or I'm training for a marathon and I'm getting halfway there.
I think one of the things you mentioned before we started recording, but I you've you've kind of alluded to it several times, is this idea of where you're starting from. So if you're starting from an eating disorder, you know, where you have had true health problems or you've had significant psychological problems because of the relationship with food and maybe controls over food and body, that's going to need a different approach here than someone who is, you know, trying to lose a couple pounds because they don't like the roles and maybe they're starting to fixate on it too much.
Those are going to be really different scenarios. So when you say like it depends on the person, everyone's different. I think that is important to recognize that we really can't have a blanket statement because depending on what your frame of reference is, you know, if you're coming from a disordered from an eating disorder background versus just trying to kind of figure things out as a woman in a culture that kind of puts too much pressure on it, those those approaches are going to look way different for someone who isn't super struggling with an eating disorder.
They maybe can can do some of this on their own and, and still entertain the idea of like, maybe I'll get, you know, Botox or my face looks a certain way, or maybe I'll get a tummy tuck, or maybe I'll get a breast augmentation. You know, some people may be able to do fine with a little bit of that, but they're going to be some people who have struggled with body image so significantly that they can't touch it with a ten foot pole, right?
They have to really remove all of it and, and really just focus on different aspects like function. Yeah, definitely. And I think that is a, an important distinction. Again, I think body acceptance, body trust, body neutrality is not having the expectation that, you know, you're going to feel great about your body every day, right. Notice that I have not said body positivity.
So it is within my own particular framework as a therapist, that body positivity is not the most helpful goal. Can it be a goal for someone? Absolutely. Am I happy to be in that space with someone? Absolutely. And someone who's maybe further along in their body image journey may have that is as their goal? I would say I myself, I practice more of a body neutrality because something that I've noticed about the body positivity movement is it still puts a lot of emphasis on how do you think and feel about your body.
Yeah. Whereas body neutrality is like stop thinking and feeling about your body, just like be with your body, be with it and go with it if it feels a certain way, if it looks a certain way, it's there. Yeah. I was going to bring you back to that because you did mentioned the body, the body acceptance and then the body trust and then the body neutrality.
And you talked about the other two. Tell us, just define for us. I think we've got it at this point, but just define for us what what do you mean when you say body neutrality? Yeah. I think a significant part of body neutrality is both acceptance and trust. But it's also just being able to be with your body, right, of you can even think or feel a certain way about your body of like, oh, I don't really look good today.
Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm still going to continue throughout my day or, you know, I don't feel well in my body today. Yeah. And I can still, you know, if I, if I'm sick, I can just be neutral and objective that, oh, I'm sick, I need to rest or I need to eat this food to feel better or I need to drink, you know, a ginger ale to help my tummy feel better.
And there's no judgments. It's it's not about being able to attain something or not attain something. It's just we're being present and we're being in tune. And that's more of how I would describe neutrality. Whereas, you know, the negativity is hyper focused on all the things we hate. You know, positivity could be, oh, here are all the things I love.
Whereas neutrality, we're just there. We're with we're with our body and we're accepting and we're trusting it. Yeah. Thank you for clarifying that, because I do think that's an important distinction of it's not just roses and rainbows all the time. Like it's okay still to have negative or positive feelings about your body. It's just being with your body.
You mentioned earlier some steps you could could offer to help people kind of tune in on these things and to hone their idea of body acceptance. Is there anything you want to say at this point about some of those steps that we can actually take? Yeah, yeah. So to kind of continue with what we were talking about, something that also comes up with a lot of women that I work with is comparison.
So, so again, after you've built this awareness and you're kind of going through well, how how are you showing up with your body and what do your thoughts look like? When do your urges look like what your actions look like. Right. And so we're kind of considering those three different things. And like like I was saying, you know, can we start decreasing how we're comparing ourselves to other people?
Can we be interdependent? We're living in communities where and houses with other people in them. We have a partner or we're not, or whatever, just being around groups of friends or groups of other women. I think we are also living in a culture that encourages us to be very competitive of, yeah, amongst ourselves, especially as women. And so, being able to notice what can I decrease, how I'm comparing myself, can I start lifting myself up and also lift others up?
Where am I? Am I constantly in that space of like, how do I measure up to her? Or how am I not meeting what she's doing? There's there's this. And I think especially what I've noticed living in Utah, there is this kind of like keeping up with the Joneses mentality of what are they doing and what are they doing?
And how can I align myself or be even better? Right. And that's not always bad. I think that there is a, a sense of we want to feel successful and we want to feel like we're doing well. And again, it comes back to that. How is that impacting us? So I would say being aware of comparison, I already mentioned this, but like clothing, are you allowing yourself to just have clothing that feels good on you and that fits.
And being able to show up in those spaces, how do you talk to yourself? That was something that you mentioned earlier. What does your self-talk sound like? And this I think is similar. When I talk about body image, I put it on a spectrum. One end is negative, the other end is positive. Neutrality is in the middle.
And I look at self-compassion very similarly of sometimes are really hard on ourselves. And sometimes we're maybe very arrogant about our small. Yes. In a very confident way. Right. And then there's this kind of like middle space that I also like to refer to is just, can we be objective? Like, oh, today was hard and just stop right there.
There's no judgment, there's no nothing behind it. Or even if we go to a workout class. Wow. I'm really tired. Yeah. We don't have to go into. I'm so weak. I wasn't as good as a person or. I'm out of shape. Right? It's just. Oh, yeah, but I'm okay. I felt tired today. I was tired today. Right? So even even looking at things like self-talk, and we've touched on this too, but like, how are you maybe being held back or not by your body image of or food or, you know, movement of, oh, I don't want to go to that dinner because other people will see how I eat or I don't want to
show up to this event because I don't. I don't feel like I look good today or things like that. So. So considering also, can you continue to show up according to your value system, according to what feels important? Regardless of how you feel about those things? And then we we also talked about how much time you're spending in front of the mirror.
If there's body checking, are you pinching and pulling at yourself, or can you just get ready and walk out the door, if not confidently confident enough that you are, you're ready for the day and that you can do the things you need to do. And then, something that I also talked about with my colleagues, when I was considering this question, is not not waiting for your body to change, to do things right.
So something that we talk about is like, big events like maybe marriage, weddings, vacations, all, all of these things where we may want to have an ideal body or we want to be on a certain meal plan, or we want to be doing certain things around movement so that we're giving this perception, maybe, or that we're giving an impression.
And, and I think just building up that awareness and like, of letting yourself live your life in the body that you have today. Yeah. Those are all such good tips. So I'm glad you shared that. I want to talk a little more about the disordered eating side. The, the food side. We've talked about body image but I want to talk about the disordered eating side because there are patterns that are not serving us very well.
And in functional medicine this is really a delicate conversation, because in functional medicine we rely very heavily on nutrition and on nourishment, as I prefer to call it, of how are you nourishing your body? What are you fueling your body with? Because the fuel does have an impact on the function of the body. And that's science. Like that is that is biology.
And we can't always change it, even though on the flip side of that, it can definitely triggered some disordered eating patterns. Orthorexia is one that's a fixation with healthy foods. Right. I think the milder versions of that are there. Things like intense macro counting to obtain a specific weight. You know, where they say, oh, I need to lose three more pounds?
Like, who cares about like, why do we care three more pounds? Like what? Why do you care about that? I think it's such a delicate conversation. When we talk about eating of how do we how do we know what we're eating so that we can know that we're fueling ourselves well and pay attention to the labels to make sure that there's not things in there that's unhealthy for our bodies.
On the flip side of that, how do we just be okay and and get back to you? You'll talk about intuitive eating. How do we get back to just connecting our bodies with food and and not worrying so much about the details. So will you give your perspective on that of, of where do we go? How do we find this balance?
Yes, it is a tricky balance. Yeah. For sure. So something that I really like to talk to clients about when we're talking about, you know, food, body exercises, look at a kid. Right. Kids are great intuitive eaters. So my, my framework is intuitive eating. And and kids just they know again it's that intuition. It's that oh I'm hungry.
So I want to eat I'm for, I'm done eating and kids are actually really fascinating. I mean you watch you watch a toddler and they're they'll, they'll live on goldfish and cheese for, for days. And then all of a sudden they want a salad or they want meat. And so their body is kind of signaling to them of, hey, we have a deficit of this thing.
And so that that is something that I like to talk about with people who struggle with disordered eating is when we look at children, they haven't learned yet all of the things that we've learned, we're not really learning about just about food. And so just considering, you know, and this is where I think a team approach, even if it's just disordered eating, is still helpful of what is your medical provider saying?
Do you trust them? Would it be helpful to see a dietitian who is educated about disordered eating or disordered patterns? And then sometimes a therapist, right. And and being able to recognize, I think permission is a very key part of food of and I was just, you know, talking with you about this before the podcast of if if something that you would maybe deem as unhealthy or bad is the only thing that's available to you that day, but you're hungry as their permission to eat that thing.
Yeah, right. And and being able to pull back more from this idea of what's good or bad for the body and just letting one have permission. Because part of intuitive eating is actually variety as well, you know, and intuitive eating. We are moving away from labels such as good or bad foods, healthier unhealthy foods. But part of that is just reestablishing do you have permission to eat and is there permission to eat?
What's available? Is there permission to eat variety? Is there permission around food, which a lot of times I think we learn not to be permissive with a lot of calorie counting instruction and diet. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, before I worked at center for change, I was doing Whole30. I was doing keto. Right. And so I very much bought into, oh, these foods are bad.
These foods are empty calories. These foods are quote unquote, good, healthy. Right. And so recognizing though, that like, oh, but my body actually needs carbs. And recognizing like I also need protein and protein does help me feel fuller. I'm also allowed to have dessert. Do I want you to have, you know, fast food for every single meal?
No, but if that's if you're on a road trip and that's what's available, is that okay? Yeah. And so I think, you know, a key part of intuitive eating is permission variety. You know, if we're talking about reconnecting to the body and getting hunger and fullness cues back and honoring those things, and, and being able to, I think, just let go of a lot of the things that are mainstream.
I think that's also something that I want to point out is when people are going on diets where they're going, towards any kind of I want to see lifestyle change that's actually not really a long lifelong change, right, is that they're going with something that's trending and we've seen a lot of diet. I'm sure you've seen a lot of diets, the trend in and out and so also recognizing that if there was one diet that fit everyone, we'd all be on it.
Yeah. And that's just not the case. So I think also, you know, considering where are you getting your information and what what are the reasons of why you may be eating the way that you are eating? Yeah, man, it is so nuanced. There's so much to consider here and have from a functional medicine physician perspective. I do actually think that that there is a lot of common ground, but it can seem at first like there's not right?
Like functional medicine is known for, elimination diets and, and, you know, cutting out quote unquote unhealthy foods and seed oils and inflammatory foods. And there's a certain amount of that, that, that is biology, that the body works better on certain fuels than others. But I do think it's context that matters. You know, for someone who's been in a calorie restriction, trying to lose weight for a prolonged period of time, the very first thing is not to put them, in my opinion and in my practice.
The first thing is not to put them on an elimination trial. That would be a misstep. The first step is to feed them and to feed them good, nourishing fuel that is going to trigger their cells, to start communicating those messages properly from their bodies. So it really becomes difficult because processed foods and fast foods and these foods that you could never begin to make at home, they would never taste the same.
Those foods are professionally engineered to mess up your own food cues. So we spoke about this before is I have a little different perspective on intuitive eating, because I've seen where people try, probably without appropriate guidance, but where people try just to rely on intuitive eating. They say, I don't want to count. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to fixate on food.
I'm just going to eat intuitively. And then it doesn't work. Partially because if they're only eating intuitively with foods that are not nourishing their body, the body will not give you appropriate cues. It can't. It doesn't know how. It doesn't know how to tell you to stop eating a certain amount of these processed chips. The food is engineered to mess up those cues.
So, but we do have to take it in context, because if you have someone who is not thriving, they are eating way too little, or they are in unhealthy patterns of, eating disorders or, you know, over restriction or binging and etc., etc., any of these really, harmful eating patterns. Even then, the first step is not for me to be like, so we only eat, you know, olive oil.
We don't eat seed oils. Like that's not the first step for that person. The first step is to eat and to take down some of those barriers and to say, listen to your body. And when you're hungry, you eat something. But then hopefully over time, we can start fueling our body. And that's with my approach to weight loss.
I am always trying to fuel fuel, fuel, fuel first because that restores those cues. That's that's what restores our body's inherent cues to say, I think I'm full now. You will never get full eating jelly bellies. It's really, really difficult to to eat enough jelly bellies to trigger those satiety cues. Fiber, protein, fat that's what's meant to trigger those satiety cues.
So all of that to say, I think it's it's nuanced, and I think it depends on where you're starting from. And I think in any of this, you can go too far. You know, you could start with having an eating disorder and give yourself permission to eat. And now you're eating and you're working through and now you're eating healthier, and now you're eating healthier.
And then you're right back into a disordered eating pattern because you're obsessed with only eating healthy. On the flip side of that, if we don't acknowledge that there are, in fact, healthy foods and unhealthy foods, there are foods that do things for our bodies and other foods that do negative things to our bodies. We we can't ignore that either.
So I don't know. I think we're on the same page, and I think it's a really valuable conversation because people are seeing both sides of this, and I think it's really hard to know where you stand. And so for me, and I want to hear your opinion on this, for me, I would say know where you're starting and your own relationship with food is.
If your relationship with food is fine, then by all means focus on eating vegetables and protein and healthy fats and cutting out sugars. If your relationship with food is not fine, then that may not be the place that you start. You may just have to start with giving yourself permission to eat enough to feel full and to feel fueled.
Yeah. What what thoughts do you have about that? Because I know it's it. I don't think we're at odds. I think it is the same. I just think it's different ends of the spectrum. And I think it's really important to recognize how complex it is. Yeah. Well, I mean, I appreciate the acknowledgment of I work with a very severe population, right.
When we're looking at eating disorders. Yeah. We need to, if we're thinking about all of the different eating disorders, the way that I talk about it is like a pendulum. Yeah, right. Regardless of what the eating disorder is, we're starting at one extreme and then we're going to swing over here. And two, you are following a meal plan.
You are engaging in these things with the hope of getting to an intuitive place, a more intuitive place, and that looks different for everyone. Right. And so as the pendulum swings, it will start to even out. And that's that's what I talk to people about. So I appreciate the nuance of this conversation. And also that to acknowledge my specialty is working with eating disorders where we have to fight extreme with extreme.
Yeah, to start out. And then we move into, you know, more into individualized treatment and particular, needs medically or otherwise, that a person may have also acknowledging that both of us as professionals when I'm and I'm sure you approach this the same way when I'm in the room with someone they are the expert on. Yeah. Exactly. Right.
You're the expert on your life experience. I can't tell you that how you think or feel or what you're doing is wrong, right? I can tell you my hopes for you. I can tell you what what I view could be helpful. And everyone is the expert on their own life experience. And so I appreciate you bringing that up of everyone's different and everyone.
I think everyone is different and what they need and their body to feel well. Yeah. And and what they need to feel like they are living their best life and their own body. Every body is different. Yeah. Yeah. I think there are, you know, for example, there are some people who I think would do better without gluten, but not everyone is ready to do a gluten free trial, you know.
So if someone comes in and I say, do you have any history of disordered eating patterns? And they say, yeah, it's really hard for me, then I can help them adjust and say, okay, well then we've got to get you better in other ways, and at some point we may need to come back to that. But it's not the end all be all like it's I want to make another note about this, and then I want to hear about your thoughts about disordered eating patterns in general, because we haven't really defined that.
The difference between disordered eating and eating disorders. But from my perspective, oftentimes in functional medicine, there's so much pressure on if you just eat the right foods, then you'll be well. And if you if you're not well, it's because you haven't found the right formulation yet. Either you haven't eliminated the right food, you haven't eliminated enough foods, and you see people going on these more and more extreme diets and I think it can be so damaging because it like cements in the head, in the brain, this association between good food equals feeling good.
And if I don't feel good, I must be doing something wrong with my food. And I think that's really damaging. I will frequently take people through some sort of elimination trial or food optimizing sort of process. But at some point, if it doesn't get better, then I say, okay, stop changing your food. It's not going to make that we would.
We're not there like it's not your food. Whereas I think online people will be like, oh, have you tried nightshades? Have you tried almonds? Have you tried cashews? Like eliminating these things until people come in and they're eating three foods. Right. So I do think that we especially functional medicine and the health community has to really keep a firm, tab on what we're doing to tip the scale in really unhealthy directions.
So tell me, because we should have gone through this earlier and I, we just got talking. What is the difference between disordered eating patterns and eating disorders? Yeah, I mean, for sure, I think we have been touching on it. We just haven't said overtly, but for sure, again, how how is your eating, your relationship with your body and your relationship with movement impacting your day to day life, right.
To be quote unquote diagnosed with anything? That's one of the first things we're looking at is what is the impact? Is it negatively impacting you, and if so, in what ways? Right. And I will say there's probably a lot of people in day to day life that are high functioning people with eating disorders, right? So some people may not see it as an impediment or as anything that's quote unquote wrong.
And not that having an eating disorder is wrong, but people, I think, will be dismissive, especially because they think they don't look sick enough. Right. Something I do want to acknowledge is that binge eating disorder is the number one eating disorder in the US, and it's also the least treated. Right, because when we go even middle school, I can remember we learned about eating disorders as people who are emaciated, people who are, you know, medically in danger.
That's what an eating disorder looks like. Yeah. You can have a quote unquote average or normal body shape and size and still have an eating disorder. So I think that's something that I do want to say. We can't look at someone and say yes or no. You have an eating disorder part of it is, you know, how much of your brain spaces are taking up BMI.
Unfortunately for me, just from a therapeutic perspective is a piece of do qualify for any some types of eating disorders. You know, other pieces where I would say are disordered or things that you've touched on or what are your relationship with food? Are you always on a diet? Are you always thinking about, you know, your body, how you want to change it?
What are ways that you can do that? And I would say, you know, orthorexia is not something that we technically diagnose because it's not in the DSM, but a lot of people are obsessed about movement causes, more psychological disorders, and then oftentimes physical right, disability. Right. Yeah. And so considering, again, how extreme maybe are your relationships with food movement body and how is it impacting your life?
Control I think is another piece with binge eating, you know, or even bulimia. Probably with all of the disorders. I think we could talk about control. You know, there are eating disorders like our food where it's more sensory and it's more of like, a process where your, your connection or your relationship with food that's more complicated and it's not really focused on body image at all.
So there are I think, more of, a range of eating disorders that we just don't talk about or acknowledge because we've all, at least for me, in my public education, kind of been titled like, here's what an eating disorder looks like, and here's what's quote unquote normal. But I think I know very few intuitive eaters in my life, and I think a lot of people are often engaged in more disordered relationships with food, body and movement than they're aware of.
Which is why, you know, I've been touching on building that awareness is kind of that first step of acknowledging, yeah, do do I have a disordered relationship? Maybe. Maybe not. And I actually applaud a lot of women, especially the patients I see who come in and say, you know, I really do want my body to be as healthy as it could be and should be, but I feel like it's it's causing me angst.
You know, my focus and I have lots of patients who will say, like, I've tried counting macros, I've tried really eating healthy, and it puts my brain into an unhealthy fixation with food. So I, I really applaud people who can see that. Unfortunately, I don't think we have the tools yet to really help. I think some of the weight loss medications, frankly, can be really beneficial with that for some of the psychology and some of the brain cues that go on that make this harder for some people than others.
But we still are missing some tools. But I do think having that awareness of like, I notice, I notice my brain is not happy in that state. Like as soon as I start counting macros or as soon as I start, you know, obsessing about it, then my brain is not at a healthy place. And I really, like I said, I applaud those people who can say like, I can't take that route, right?
That is that is not the right path for me. I need to come back to a place of, you know, feeding myself and fueling myself and and figuring things out that way. Yeah. Well, this has been such an important conversation. I think we could keep talking, but, tell us, is there any kind of wrap up or any kind of summary that you would want to share?
Anything? We haven't shared yet with this group of people who are listening. Is there anything you'd like to say that that just in closing? Yeah. I, I think I just want to validate that it's hard. I think our culture is hard. I think the pressure, especially that women are put under, is especially difficult. And I think, you know, my ideal would be that we could live in a world where body diversity is acknowledged and that it's accepted and it's more mainstream.
Right? I think, and my ideal hopes and dreams, everyone would be able to have just, you know, a relationship with food, not good or bad, just a relationship that people could move their bodies in whatever spaces and ways they feel comfortable with. And we're not there yet as a society. We're not there yet in our culture. And, you know, again, going back to this, this very individual basis of like, how do you want to be in your life and how are you showing up and how is that relationship and just building an open curiosity of is, is this what I want?
And if it is great, keep doing what you're doing. And if you are noticing, like maybe there is some space for me to change or to be different, start seeking those resources. I do just think that sometimes these conversations are really difficult and can feel really uncomfortable, and oftentimes that's when we're noticing discomfort that is a signal of oh, something could be different, right.
And so I think just being patient with yourself and being gentle and and being able to just openly be curious about where do you want to go next for sure. Well, thank you for sharing that. Will you tell our listeners where they can find you, where the center for change. Oh, yeah, absolutely. So again, center for change, we are eating disorder specialized.
So I don't want everyone walking away from this thinking, oh, I must have an eating disorder. But but maybe acknowledging where you are currently with your body, with movement, with food. Center for change. We do have a location in Cottonwood Heights, off of Hyland Drive in Utah and Utah. Yes. And then we also our main facility is in Orem, Utah.
And we also, serve folks up in Boise, Idaho as well. So we have therapists who, you know, we are not just working with eating disorders. We also work with disordered eating. We work with body dysmorphia. We work with also general mental health. So depression, anxiety, all of the things. Yeah. Well, thanks so much for coming on.
Thanks for helping us understand this. And hopefully you feel empowered to recognize it. If it's an issue in ourselves and, and take steps to hopefully prevent it or, or keep it from getting worse and give us some avenues to get the help if we need it. Yes. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for tuning in to today's episode.
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