It's hard for women to let go, because women have generally been taught that the home is a reflection of them and their value as a woman. And so women care more about it because their value is tied to it. Today's guest is Doctor Julie Hanks, and Julie has been such an important voice in the space of female empowerment.
Today, we're really diving into the idea of overwhelm in women, what it is, why it's there, and most importantly, what we do about it. Doctor Julie Hanks is a PhD and licensed clinical social worker. She's also a licensed psychotherapist, content creator, author of two books, The Burnout Cure and The Assertiveness Guide for Women and The Host of her own podcast, Ask Doctor Julie.
With nearly 30 years of experience. Doctor Hanks is passionate about helping women of all ages step into their power and create a life they love. If you have ever felt overwhelmed, or if you felt like you are just on the edge of burning out, or maybe you just know you're deep in the thick of burnout. Listen to this episode as we go through exactly what steps we can take to climb our way back out of it.
You matter, and you deserve to get your needs met just as much as anybody else. And you. And you don't have to prove your worth like you. It exists. And so now what do you want to do?
Well, Julie, thank you so much for being here. I am so excited to have this conversation with you.
Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
We are going to dive right in because this is such a big topic that affects so many women. Will you just tell us a little bit about how you became passionate, especially about mental health issues with women? Yeah, and especially around these issues of burnout and overwhelm and female empowerment. How did that come to be a thing for you?
Yeah, well, I went to therapy as a teenager just for some mental health problems, and I was so inspired by the changes that it made in my life. I thought, well, maybe I could do that for people because I was really fascinated by the mind and emotions, and I am a woman who is trying to figure it out. And so I'm right there with my clients. Yeah, trying to balance family life and career and expectations for physical attractiveness and, you know, health and blah, blah, blah. Like there's so much. And so part of it is just my own quest to figure it out, to not burn out, to figure out how to get my needs met while taking care of other people. So it's very personal for me.
Yeah. That's so wonderful. Well, I told you, Julie, before this, that this is actually just like, for me, I think. Yeah, exactly. This is my own personal episode, but I really think it affects so many different people. It will resonate with a lot of people. So tell us first about your book and and about the journey that you went on to write that and, and helping people through burnout.
Yeah. So the book is The Burnout Cure, and it seems like I wrote it forever ago, but it was after a decade of speaking to women's groups, and I surveyed them. And then also I was working with a lot of women in my clinical practice. And so the book has themes of the women that I was working with and kind of how to prevent it instead of just dealing with it once you get there, like, what can you do to take care of yourself?
So I'm really big into self-care. Yeah, I love that. Me too. So tell us a little bit more about what burnout is, because certainly we hear about it plenty. But like what is burnout and how does someone find out if they're close to it or in it or, you know, suffering from being in it? Yeah, I think the biggest thing is you just don't have energy and you don't have joy.
There's a lot of overlap with depression and with burnout, but it's just like you don't feel like yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think it tends to have a slow ramp up, or do you feel like it's sort of keeping it together, keeping it together? And then someone suddenly realizes, like it's all falling apart? What's your experience been? It can be either.
It can. You know, sometimes you go through a big life transition, maybe having a baby or getting divorced or having the death, and that can kind of. It's just like I'm I'm overwhelmed with what life is presenting. And so it's when your coping skills are overwhelmed by whatever you're dealing with. Yeah. Why does it matter if we're in burnout?
Like, what are the negative repercussions you see of being in burnout? I think as women so much we have this mentality of like just push through, like just keep going, right? Like, why not just keep going through burnout or can, you know, you can't. You'll eventually hit a wall, you know. Right. You know that it's like your body will just start shut, shutting down in some way to protect you.
You'll have physical symptoms. Yeah. So it's not something you can ignore. Yeah. And that's why we're talking about it is because we want to be able to identify it beforehand. Right. And hopefully avoid getting to that point. But also if for anyone who's listening who feels like, oh my gosh, that's me, I am, I am deep in that state of of what we can do about it.
So I wanted to kind of just make sure we're clear about that. So as women, I feel like we are set up for this impossible equation. Right? You mentioned just a couple of them. This idea of body image and esthetics of like, I want to look a certain way, but also I want to be a good mom and also I want to be a good neighbor.
And I want to take good care of myself. So I should walk and drink water and exercise and eat all the protein and. Yeah. How is this a winnable equation? I think for a lot of people, it can feel like it's setting us up for failure, because if we try to do all the things, then we're going to burn out.
But if we don't try to do all the things, then we're going to be super unhealthy. So how do we even begin to make sense of this expectation that's put on women to. And I not even mentioned the mental burden of running a household that whether you're a full time marriage and taking care of aging parents and and on and on, on and on.
Yeah. Church service there just so many expectations and employment, you know, element. Exactly. Yeah. So how do we even begin with what seems like kind of an unfair equation, like an unwinnable game? I think the first step is to recognize that it is the expectations are impossible, and that we don't even have to try to meet them all.
Yeah. So how then does someone take that step? Because it can we can say that. And I think that resonates with a lot of us because we're like, well, of course, well, of course happen. There's still that. Well, yeah. And then there's that. Well what what really essential thing do I let go of my health? No, I'm supposed to put my own oxygen mask on first, right?
Right. Well my kids well, I can't like all of them while my parents while I can't do that. Yeah. So how do people figure out what are the things that you keep striving to keep on your plate? You know, keeping the balls in the air? Which ones are the things that I keep juggling, and which ones are the things that I do allow to drop?
I think that is a constant internal conversation. Yeah, that can change. But what this is, is an opportunity to clarify your values. Yeah. Your values, not society's values. Yeah, right. So taking care of your health, like what do you value about your health. It may be okay. Right now I'm going to focus on exercising three times a week.
But it doesn't have to be. And eating X amount of protein and drinking water and at a diet and weight training and like sometimes it's just, okay, what do I want to focus on right now? Yeah, my value is health and I'm going to express it through exercising three times a week. That's what I'm going to focus on.
Yeah. So really taking the value I value connection, the behavior that's going to look like is I'm going to take care of my children's. Yeah. Needs. Yeah. This is a chance for women to decide what matters to us. Yeah. Not what has been put on us. So it actually requires, in some ways more work. Yeah, but the freedom that comes with it of saying what you're going to let go of, or maybe I don't have a lot of time for friendships because I have an aging parent.
And recognizing that we just have to like, what do we value most? And then how are we going to express that value in our lives? Yeah, at any given time. The second thing is recognizing as humans we have limitations and that that's normal and that's okay. And we need to kind of accept that. Yeah, expectations are are unrealistic and that we have limitations.
Right. Whether we want it to be true or not. The fact is that we only have a capacity, a certain capacity. So talk to us about where some of these pressures come from, because I think that's one of the difficult parts, is I see this in my patients a lot more, where they will come with a list of things that they heard somewhere were what they should be doing.
And they're not wrong. Yeah, they're it's not often things that are way off the mark. They're, they're legitimate things that would be good for them. But they come kind of with this pile of expectations of like, I just don't know how to put all these pieces together. Yeah. So I think sometimes those pressures can come from places like social media, but sometimes they come from other directions.
Where, where do you see these pressures coming from that make us feel like I have to do all of these things? Some of it is community and culture. Some of it might be church community. Is there anything else, as you've worked with patients or clients that are the big things that come up that we need to kind of recognize?
Wait, that's an outside expectation. That's not my expectation. Does that question make sense? I think so, ultimately they're all external expectations. Yeah. So we don't have it like we're not born like going, oh my gosh, I need it. You know, I have so many grams of protein a day. Like we learn all of it. Yeah. And and what we get to do is sort through it and recognize like, oh, I have this, this should.
Yeah. And so I encourage my clients to write down the should. Yeah. And then write down the origin. Yeah. Where is this from. Okay. This is from social media. So grandma who says yeah I was getting chubby as a teenager this is from, you know, my parents or this is from my partner or social media or whoever. And then, like, what do you really what's realistic in the third column?
Yeah. What what do you really want to believe? Yeah. Right. Like I should exercise seven days a week. Well, it's not realistic, but maybe three. I can act like I can do that. I should be with my child 24 seven. Where did that come from? Right. Yeah. And where'd that come from? And then, like, I want to be with my kid more often than not.
Yeah okay. I can do that. Yeah. Like dissecting those shoulds into more realistic like. Well, I actually really don't want to be with my child 24 seven. Yeah. And I think they could benefit from being with other people. Yeah. And and kind of deconstructing those, those those beliefs. Yeah. A gosh, I feel like that exercise alone is gold.
Yeah. I mean, you think about all of the things that stress us out and and that's kind of where my question was coming from is we feel like our home should look a certain way. And Instagram, you know, when you see online or even you go to to neighbors homes and you look in, they're like so beautifully decorated and then feel like, oh, okay, I should do that.
I should update because the mine is a little out of date now, or I should, you know, wear a certain thing, or I should do my face a certain way, much less health and, and all of the other things. So I love that exercise a lot. What's helped me is instead of to go, I should to go. I'm inspired by that and I would love to have a home that was really cohesive and felt like that.
Then what's one step I can take toward that? Or wow, she's so healthy or she's so compassionate and patient with her kids. I'm inspired by that. What's one step I can take to become more patient with my child? Yeah, you're looking at their strength, but you're not looking at your strength, right? It's a different context. Yeah. Like I am not a good housekeeper homemaker.
That's like I'm not crafty. I don't like you know what I mean. Yeah. And and I run a business. Yeah. And I do that really well. So. Yeah. But I can look at people who are really beautiful homemakers and create an environment. I have a sister in law who she just shines like. Yeah, gathering people and and I can be inspired by that without feeling shame that I'm not good enough.
Yeah. Oh, gosh, she's so good at that. What can I learn. And be curious about it instead of like beating yourself up with it. Yeah. You know mean I do. Yeah I really love that. I think one of the things I thought of as you were talking is I feel like I'm down on social media today, but I think one of the things that's so difficult as women is finding space in our brain to even do any of this right, to even stop and think like, what does inspire me or what?
Why am I doing this? Or where is that coming from? That expectation? Where is it coming from? What are your thoughts on that of the busyness of the the woman's brain? Yeah. And then you add to that like kids constantly adding noise or needing attention. Love them. Great. But like there is a lot of, space that our kids occupy in our brains, right?
And then if we have social media or a podcast or, you know, something, just constant input, how do we even find the space to reflect and to kind of work through these where what are just some thoughts on that? Yeah. I have never met a family that has enough support for the work they're trying to do. So you use your support system like if you can afford child care, like say, if you're an employed woman and you have children, actually hire more support than you think you need and you'll probably be about right.
Right? Yeah. Value that quiet time. If you have a partner, require them to be an equal partner so you're not carrying all the mental load and the invisible labor. Yeah. Use the support that you have so often we think, oh well I should be able to do it all. That's another should. Right. And when if you have the support, if you have resources, financial resources, relationship resources, use those relationships to take care of yourself.
It is a gift to other people to take care of you, because then your kids won't feel like, oh, I got to take care of mom or right? People think they're being so selfless, but then they actually become a burden because they get sick. They get have get a mental health issue, burnout, whatever it is. And so think about it like it's a gift you're giving to you, but it's also a gift to your loved ones to not have to worry about you.
Yeah. So proactively offload now before you're sick, right. And then forced to offload in a way that may be more burdensome right now. There was a time where I, had chronic sinus infections and it really impacted my life negatively. And I found that, like, I'd need to take every couple of months, like, take a few days off.
And then I realize when I just take a few days off, when I feel good and maybe my body won't need to get sick to get me to rest. And so I started blocking out a day every so often where I didn't have to do anything. And I and I recognize that's a luxury. My kids were older and and I have had support because I was employed, but I was able to carve out some time.
Yeah. So I could prevent. Yeah. Instead of yeah, right. Like what is the sickness doing for me? Oh, it's making me rest for a weekend. Well, I'm just going to take a weekend off every couple of months. Yeah. And and maybe my body won't need to do that. Yeah. Yeah. So what? Because I'm just imagining the the many of our response to that is like.
I mean, I'm not that bad though. Like, I'm not that sick. I'm not I'm not comparing to you. But like, no, no, no, no, I think we use that that justification of like, well, I'm not going to ask for help because I can do it. Like, yeah, I'll just do it. Yeah. What what is your response to women like myself where it's like, I mean, I hear what you're saying and I know I should schedule time off in and I know I should schedule some self-care, but, like, I'm fine.
I'll just power through it. Yeah. It's like, okay, you can. Yeah, but you're you're going to pay for it. And that's actually going to hurt everybody that you love. Yeah. Including yourself in your circle of care. Like you wouldn't say to your kid, I know you have a fever and whatever, but just, you know, you could just pretend like you're fine.
Yeah. We don't expect other people to pretend that they're fine when they're when they're not. Or to, like, you encourage your kids to take care of yourself. Yeah. Encourage your partner like, yeah, go play pickleball or go do that like I want you to get your needs met. Your needs mattered just as much as anyone else in your household or anyone else in your life.
Yeah. As women, we've been taught to kind of put our needs in priority underneath the needs of others, and they need to be the same. So I'm not saying like, neglect your family in order to have spa days. Yeah. You know. Yeah. But just to value your needs the same as everyone else's. Yeah. Whenever, whenever I talk about this concept of like asking for help and avoiding whatever burnout version we're talking about, I think about like back in the prairie days when, you know, your closest neighbor was a mile down the road and your closest neighbor after that was ten miles down the road.
So you two would get together and they would can and they would, you know, help each other put the garden in and they would help each other prepare for pregnancy. And they would, you know, so all the close together and then they would go to the other house. And so they're close together, like there is just this feeling of community of, of it was so normal that it wasn't ever perceived as like, why are you asking for help?
It was like, oh, this is what we do. We we help each other. You come to me and I help you, and then I come to you like, yeah, quilting circles, right where they would come and they would say like, well, you're having a baby. So of course we're going to do this, or I wish we built in.
It was the assumption, not the exception. And I think right now it's such the exception and it's so difficult because even if we say like myself, like I am going to, I'm going to start doing this like I can. Yeah, I am by far a terrible example of this. So I can speak from personal experience. What it feels like is I'm going to have to pay for it.
So if I ask for help, I'm still going to have to pay for it. I'm going to have to catch up on the thing that I was getting a break from. You know, like if I take a break for myself that I'm still going to have to come back around. What are your thoughts about this thing? Let's talk about an example like, what is one thing you would do and ask me for an example?
I know you were going to give us an example. No no no no. Well like I because I work during I work Monday through Friday. So I feel like Saturday and Sunday should be 100% dedicated to my kids and my family. And which leaves then why zero time for for me to kind of recover? Why? I think because I legitimately want to be with them.
Okay. And also, I think they legitimately need their mom. You know, I think there's good things that I can do for them. Yeah. But of course, it is a little bit of a vicious spiral because I they're not getting my best, you know. And so that has to go with work life balance which. Right, right. You know what what we're working on.
Yeah we're working on it. So is there a two hour block on the weekend or during the week that you could have movie night with friends or go out, you know, like where you could do whatever it is, read a novel or. Yeah. Is there a two hour block that you could build into your life that it's like Tuesday night, mom goes to $5 movie night and everybody knows it, and you know, you're on your own for dinner or dad's going to be or whatever the deal is.
Yeah. And is there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there is, there is I think is as I think through that like Tuesday nights, for example, or Saturday mornings. And then it's just, why don't we do it? Why don't we just I'm asking you. Oh I know like what is what is that what comes up like that's selfish. Like what is the resistance that comes up.
Oh these are hard questions. I know, I think, and I'm only answering these because I hope it's helpful for other people. But there are a lot of people who would listen to this and be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's all well and good to say. You should take time for yourself. But like, I'm not actually going to do that or like, right.
How do I actually do that? I think some of it definitely comes with the infrastructure. Right. Do I have to figure out dinner so that I can go do this fun thing? Sometimes it's easier just to like, stay home and make dinner, right? Right. Or do I have to, you know, are the kids going to be sad? And they're like, mom, I wanted to spend time with you.
And then you have that guilt of like, okay, so the the key is to build it in. Yeah. Your husband is on dinner that night. Yeah. Or the kids are on dinner. It's fend for yourself. And if they feel sad, they get to learn how to deal with feeling sad and missing their mom. And they actually will appreciate you more.
Yeah. All right. Yeah. I'm gonna. You have your heart back. I know I'm going to have to report back because I do think it is. It is. So like I said before, I think it's so much the exception that like, I think there's there's plenty of women who do better than I do who, who get this and do this.
And yeah, I do think there's a lot of women like me who make excuses, maybe, or just don't take the steps to actually do it. Probably. I mean, thinking just from mindset work because we haven't valued it enough. Right? If I value did, I would have done it right or you had to do it. It was okay socially.
Yeah, right. Like, yeah, you wouldn't you know, it's like it's selfish. Yeah. A huge issue too. And this could be a whole different podcast is women are carrying the bulk of unpaid work and it is unfair. And so there are some practical aspects to that. Like women have less time. Yeah than men. Because still, even when both are working full time, women are doing the bulk of unpaid work at home.
And it's absolutely unfair. And it's absolutely burning women out and making them sick. And so requiring your partner, if you have one, to be an equal partner in the invisible, unpaid labor that's required. Right? Like I'm thinking, well, why are you making dinner every night if you're both working full time? Like, you know what I mean? Not that you may have a different arrangement, but.
Yeah, but some people don't even ask that question. Yeah, yeah. Or think about. Well, that's just what moms too. Well why really. Yeah. And women have have entered the workforce more readily than men have in heterosexual relationships than men have entered the world of unpaid work at home. And so it makes that contributes to burnout. And it's a very practical problem.
But I think it's a huge health problem for women. I agree with you, and I want you to follow that up a little bit, because I think even for women who are stay at home moms or wives, I think that there's still that can be really difficult because there's an expectation that then everything you're the you're the home, like you're home.
So everything at home then is yours. So yeah, how I divide that is if you are caring for children, that is your full time job. If you are working employed, that's your first full time job. You're both working full time. So anything else that needs to be done when you're both home is split. Yeah, it's not fair that one has a 24 over seven job and one has an 8 to 6 job.
Caring for children is is your full time job. We tend to not view unpaid work as a work and it absolutely is. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's really difficult for so many people to have that conversation. So couples have been built on this concept of tradition of like, well, my mom did that. So, so my husband might say to his wife, you know, my mom did that.
So you're going to do that too, right? So yeah. How do women approach this conversation without it being like down with men or, you know, without it not at all. It's a partner. Yeah, it's about being partners. And I think it's just opening the conversation to say, you know, I've been thinking a lot and I'm, I'm not happy with the way things are divided.
Yeah, I'm feeling overwhelmed and I'm wondering if we can have a conversation about maybe like, who's doing what and maybe we could rebalance this. There's a book called Fair Play that has a card deck, where you actually physically divide the cards. Oh, interesting. And you talk like whoever does the cards for that is entirely in charge of that.
One of the problems is men often go, well, just tell me what to do. Yeah. And they think that the execution man is doing the thing. But there's the conception, planning and execution. So that's just only one actually doing. The thing is only a third of the work. Yeah, right. And and so often they'll ask, you know, well just tell me what to do.
And so if that happens it's like, well, let's sit down and what are what are you willing to take on as the conception planning and execution. Yeah. Like pick two things and and just start there. But the book fair play it highly recommend. But it's important to not go. You don't do anything around here, you know. Right.
It's. I'm overwhelmed. I would like to have a conversation about redistributing some of this because I, I feel overwhelmed and. Yes. And along those lines, because these are things that come up. Right. These are things that any practitioner who talks to women like, these are things that come up and and the statements that I hear coming up with women are frequently like, well, but I don't want to burden him or I don't want to make him feel bad.
I think oftentimes there's this hesitance to bring it up. On the flip side, I think sometimes there can be some control struggles of from the from the woman side, from either side, really, but from the woman side that says, like, okay, I want you to take this task off my plate. I want this to be your card. Right?
Yeah. But also, I want you to do it exactly how I think you should do it. I think sometimes men are willing to do it, and they want to do it the way that they think they should do it. So talk about that sort of dynamic of coming to some sort of resolution with that. Yeah. So what you do is talk about what a reasonable standard of care is for that job.
So what does cleaning the bathroom mean. And, and one person may need to lower their expectations and 1st May need to raise their expectations. But you decide together what done means for that job.
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As a woman. I feel like we should like put that mic drop, like put that in bold neon letters. Yeah. And so women care more about it because their value is tied to it. Now we can talk not necessarily tied. Right. We can untie that. But it's like, well, my husband doesn't care. Well, of course he hasn't been taught that his value is associated with the state of his home.
Like, that sounds ridiculous. It's like, well, yeah, he doesn't care because it's good enough, because he doesn't feel responsible and his value is not at stake. Yeah. So why would he. You know, and if you're doing everything already the way you want, why why do anything. Yeah. And so I think there's some a lot of socialization that goes into it that yeah we need to unlink our value.
Yeah. The cleanliness of our house or the organization. Yeah. It's a tricky issue. But I, I mean as I'm just conceptual izing it. You know, when we talk about burnout, it's just this burden. Right? The burden is so great that we no longer have enough capacity or fuel to withstand the burden. Right? Yeah. Would you define that any differently?
No. That's great. So it's really started to break down like we are no longer functional because that burden is so great. Yeah. No one wants that. Yeah. No one wants to feel that way. And so what we want to do then is either to increase our capacity so that we can handle more burden, or we want to decrease our burden.
Yeah. And a huge part of the burden. Just to kind of recap a huge part of the burden is the mental burden of figuring out how to run the household. So I actually love the deck of cards idea of like, let's just make a list of all the things in the household and divvy it up and see where we stand.
And that can be fluid and flexible, right? Depending on the stage and whose work is more stressful or it doesn't, it's not rigid. It's really helpful. And what ever Rosicky, the person who wrote the book, found, I think it's if man holds 30% of the cards, 30 out of 100 cards, women are thrilled. Yeah, yeah. So it's not even about 5050.
Yeah. Women are holding so many of the cards are just happy to get, you know. Yeah, get rid of of some of them and lift that burden. And so that can be a huge shift on the burden that women are carrying to not think about something. Yeah. So for example, in my home my husband's on food. He does the grocery shopping, he does the meal planning.
He tells people when Sunday dinner is, he preps the you know, because Costco on Saturdays and I don't know if we have frozen chicken in the fridge or not. Like, I don't track it, I don't we put the, we have a list for the grocery store and we put what we need on it, and he goes and gets it and I don't have to think about.
So how did that how did that tell us your story? How did that come about? What happened to. Because I'm assuming it wasn't the default that you got married wasn't the assumption. It was not. But I I've been challenging the default my whole my whole life. I can't even remember how it came about. But we've had multiple conversations over the years about why is this like me saying, why is this my responsibility?
Why? Like, we're both in school, I'm working two jobs, and why is that? And so just kind of asking the why. But I, I think it was a conversation where it's like, what is what are 1 or 2 things you could take over? Yeah. Did you get pushback or was it a pretty was it a wine conversation that was like, oh, sure, no problem.
No. And I went, oh, you know, one. But, you know, I think what now that I'm remembering, there was a time where he was unemployed for several months and I stepped up and was working more than full time. And so he took over a lot of things. And that was just one thing that he just kept. And I never picked it back up.
Yeah, yeah, I always think it's helpful to hear how other people do it. You know, whatever that thing is that just do life. I think there's so much that we just don't really have an instruction manual for of how did how did you guys do that? Like kids with chores and all sorts of things like that. Yeah, it's it's, an ongoing, ongoing conversation that evolves, which is.
Okay. Yeah. Well, talk to us about women who are perfectionists because I am sort of a perfectionist. I let go of a lot of things now, but but this is a big problem that I see in my patients who are really struggling with burnout is most of them have some degree of perfectionism. Will you talk about that from all the angles?
Yeah. How that causes problems and what we do about it. And yeah, perfection ism is about trying to earn your worth as a human being. It's about I need to do X, Y, and Z in order to be lovable, acceptable, right? I need to prove something. Yeah. About myself. And that stems from probably childhood. And there's temperament and there's probably lots of different contributors to it.
And I this is something that I struggled with early on. And I, I feel like I'm not a perfectionist anymore. Like, I feel like I've worked on it for enough decades that but some of the things that helped me is, well, to, to recognize like, oh my gosh, I'm linking my value as a human being to my performance.
Yeah. And I performance goes up and down every day. And if our value as a human is linked to that, our self-worth just is yanked around because there's no consistency there. And so learning how to unlink feels like I have value because I exist. Yeah. Because I'm a human being. Yeah. The end. Yeah. Okay. So now what do I want to do with my time?
How do I gosh, I just opened up this huge vacuum of opportunity. Right. Like if I don't have to prove my worth, what do I want to do? How do I want to spend my time on this planet like it's so freeing, right? Dive into that a little more because it does sound amazing, but obviously is not quite that simple.
Oh, not at all. So I see people with a lot of chronic health problems, right? Chronic fatigue or chronic exhaustion or joint pain or various things. Always chronic fatigue though, and so many of them have had some sort of, trauma or exacerbation. And so many of them, it's so closely linked to perfectionism. And I think because when we talk about this idea of burden versus capacity, if you are constantly having to even prove your worth as a human being, that's a massive burden.
I mean, that alone is a massive burden on our psyche and on our nervous system, on our fight or flight to constantly be worried if we're going to be worth it or not. Right? Like if I don't get this right, my entire existence is always a threat of I'm not enough, I'm not good enough, I'm not valuable. So you mentioned kind of just recognizing that one thing that helped you was recognizing that you are worthy because you exist.
Will you give us any other tools or any other thoughts about that? Because I think that, number one, I think that people are pretty good at recognizing that they're perfectionists. I think they're pretty insightful. Yeah, but to say like I shouldn't be a perfectionist is almost impossible because the perfectionism has served us very well. Right? Like that's how I accomplished a lot, because I.
Oh yeah, stick about it. Yeah. And it's not about I shouldn't be a perfectionist, right? It's about how can I balance this coping skill. Yeah. In a way that serves me. And I just get the good benefits. Yeah. Right. Like I've benefited too. Yeah I have accomplished you know we both accomplished you very well. Yeah. Because because of like wanting to, to do better to do better and be you know be successful or whatever.
So I always tell my clients you never have to let that go. Yeah. You just want to balance it with other skills and other tools in your tool. You can always go to being perfect like you know how to do that really well. So what are the other what are some other things? So for me, when I catch myself getting into that, I use the phrase more often than not.
More often than not, I make my bed. More often than not, I'm nice to my kids. More often than not. Yeah, I'm generous more often. Right? So it kind of takes the like, gives you a little leeway. Right? Yeah. So so that is a huge theme of my life. More often than not, I love that I love that because I'm thinking of all the ways that my, my patients and myself and my family members show up as perfectionists and ask, you know, like, well, if that that sign up list goes around for your neighbor who's having a baby.
Like, I sign up for that to bring them a meal, right? And instead to say like, oh, rough week this week? Yeah, more often than not, I'm going to sign up for that. But not this week. Right? It just gives you room to be a human. Yeah. And to have your own needs and to, so that's been one.
And then another really helpful thing has been really internalizing the mantra. It's none of my business what other people think of me. Women spend so much time trying to manage other people's thoughts and feelings. Yeah. And to recognize that's actually not my job. My job is to help my kids regulate themselves. It's not to prevent all pain or to prevent people from thinking x, Y, and z.
So we spend so much time and I think this contributes to burnout. Yeah. Like, well, I don't want them to think this about me. And I don't want them. I don't want them to feel this or I don't want my partner to feel sad. It's like, well, your partner is going to feel sad. And when if you let them feel sad and then you help them work through the sadness instead of trying to prevent or control other people's thoughts and feelings.
Yeah, because those are unwinnable battles, right? Like those are the idea of like, it's not my job to, you know, x, y, z. It's not my job to make you happy. It's not my job. Yes, that's that's a fact. But also you'll you'll never be able to write like it's my job to make you happy. No, it's not, it's not your job.
And also you're incapable of you're going to burnout game, right? You're going to burnout because it's impossible. And you'll never know what people are thinking of. You. Really? Right? Ever. Or control it, right? No. Even if you didn't know it, you can try it, but you can't do either. So that's kind of what I'm hearing from you. Again, going back to this idea with burnout of burden versus capacity.
Yeah, these burdens that are unwinnable are the ones that just sit and spin and consume so much energy in our in our brains. This idea of perfection ism, the idea of mental burden, trying to control what other people think and feel. I mean, all of these are unwinnable battles and they're just sitting there spinning. They just stand in your mind.
Yeah, I think of like on the on your cell phone where it says, like, close some of those apps that, like, suck up the battery in the background, like, yeah, we want to look through our apps. We want to look through the things that we're giving energy to. Right. And say that one's sucking up way more energy than it should.
We need to turn that app off. And that would be, yeah, perfectionism. One other practical strategy is to only have three things on your to do list at any given time. Pick three things that your phone's in the hospital. Pick three. What are the top three? And that's all that's there. Yeah. And then when you, when you, when you get through those three.
Because perfectionists it's like, well I want to excel in all of these 50 areas. Yeah. And what if you just pick three and be like, I'm really going to focus on my health right now and drinking more water or like pick three things. Yeah. Gosh, I hate that one hit home. I think because my brain is like, but I have so many things that are important, but guess how many things I'm actually capable of getting to, right?
Still, only three, right? Which you can stream. You do have to list burned out, right? You can keep the list if you want, but it doesn't increase your capacity to handle that list, right. So you may as well make pages like these are the first three. These are the second three when I'm done with these. And then you look at the next one.
Yeah it is magic. Yeah. Because then you're it's actually doable. Yeah. And there's not this over whelming impending doom of like oh there's just never ending. It's like, oh yeah I got this. Don't you know deeply in my soul that impending doom from never getting to the bottom of your to do list. Tell me, because I think this is along the same lines, this idea, this is something that I have heard throughout my life is don't be so hard on yourself.
Yeah, I think it's very unhelpful because most of us don't feel like we're being hard on ourselves. Right? When we talk about deep burdening our systems, most of us are not like, I'm been real hard on myself right now, so we just think it's normal, right? And we think we're doing the best we can. Like, I'm supposed to drive.
I'm supposed to try hard, I'm supposed to have the To-Do list, and I'm supposed to want really good things. I'm supposed to want to be a good person and a good mom and a good wife and a good, you know, career, whatever it is. So how do you make sense of that balance of don't be so hard on yourself, but also you're being too hard on yourself?
Yeah, I think self-compassion can come into play here, which is treating yourself as you would treat someone that you love and my personal favorite self-compassion phrase is, of course. So when you're suffering like I will, I'll like go, yeah, of course, of course. This is hard. Yeah. Getting yourself stroking your arm, right. Like to calm yourself down when you're in pain.
Treating yourself like you would treat someone else and being kind because just going, well, you shouldn't be this way. You shouldn't be so hard on yourself. That's not compassionate. You, you know. Yeah, it's more compassionate to say, of course this is hard. Yeah. And you're doing a really good job. Yeah. Hang in there. Yeah, I think of that.
I have a lot of weight loss patients. And I think the endless weight struggle, you know, for women in our culture of so many people feel so bad about themselves because they crave sugar or because they eat something that they, they quote unquote, shouldn't. And just that idea of self-compassion, like, of course you're going to crave that. Of course you're gonna want to eat more.
And of course, this is hard, I think. And just being being as kind to yourself as you would to a vulnerable child. Yeah, right. We would never say the things that we say to ourselves, to a vulnerable child. Yeah, but that's really who we all are inside. Yeah, I think that's great. Is there anything else that comes up for you as these.
We're talking about these big things that burden the system. Is there anything that comes up that we should talk about in terms of that burden. Yeah. The belief I'm the only one. So I'm the only one who struggles with weight or who's having marriage problems or whose kid is acting out or who's questioning my faith, or it's so easy to feel like we're the only ones.
And that's part of self-compassion is a concept called common humanity. And it's the idea that everyone has gone through pain, of some kind. And that's actually the thing that brings us together, not the thing that separates us. When we're in pain, we tend to pull back, right? We tend to isolate when we really need the opposite. We need to share more.
Say like, I'm really struggling with my kid, I, I just I don't even I don't even like him, you know, and be able to find support in other people and know that no one is alone in their suffering, no one. And that belief that I'm the only one and and you're not there are, you know, millions of people struggling with whatever you're struggling with.
Yeah. And to recognize that and to see that as a connection point instead of a disconnection point, that's so great. Will you give us any tips on the other side than to be the friend who that person can come to and say, gosh, I'm really struggling with this. I think as friends, frequently we as women, or maybe it's just me.
But we're fixers, right? Like someone comes to me and says, I'm really struggling with this. And I'm like, okay, so here's what I think you should do, or here's my opinion of it. Yeah. What can we do as women to be really receptive to that, to build that community, to build that shared experience without making it into an advice session?
It's not your job to fix anything for someone else. Yeah, you can't unless they come to you. Right? Like your patients come to you like I want your help. Yeah, but in relationships, if someone's not asking for something, don't give it. Yeah. Just be there. What people and I, I, I just say make noises, right? Wow. Yeah. Sounds so hard, you know?
Yeah. Just kind of being with people. That's what most people want. Yeah. It's like to be someone to be with them. So they're not alone in their struggle. And we need it. And we need to be that. And then also to share, like to be willing to be vulnerable to say when they're done sharing, add another point to be able to share like, well, you know, my marriage is really, really struggling right now and I'm so scared or I'm, you know, to and see that as a way to connect and not as a way to disconnect because you're somehow the only one.
Yeah, exactly. And I think that we as then the, the receiver of that the listener can be a safe space where it's not going to be like, oh, what did he do? Right. You know, that we're really allowing people to say, this is hard for me without it having to be, you know, too intrusive or anything like that.
And, and I think that our inherent desire for privacy is sometimes really damaging. We, we see this as an OBE. We I have seen this a lot with miscarriages where, you know, there's so many women who have had miscarriages, but we don't talk about it. So you do feel like I'm the only one. And then as you start bringing it up, so many women come out of the cracks and say, oh, I had a miscarriage too.
And what a lovely shared experience it is to know that that I'm not the only one. Same thing with marriage, right? We do feel like we might be the only ones whose marriage is struggling, but as we talk to people we feel realize even the couples who look perfect on the outside could still say like, we've been through some really dark patches right in our marriage.
And so finding that safe way to share so we know we have shared experiences, but also not oversharing. So it becomes an unsafe. Right? Right. You want to share with people, Brené Brown says, who've earned the right to hear your story. I love that right. They've been there enough. There's enough trust. Yeah. But even with even with people you're not close with just knowing, like everyone's carrying a burden.
Yeah, you are not the only one. Just assume everyone I can as a therapist, I can verify, like nobody has it together. Everybody's struggling with something. Even therapists, you know? Oh, my gosh, I have a therapy appointment tomorrow. Like, because that's what we do. That's part of my self-care. And in the work that I do, it's really important to have someone to support me.
Yeah. You know. Yeah. Awesome. Anything else you want to add to that burden? And then I want to talk about, like how do we offload the burden? How do we increase our capacity. But anything else you want to talk about from that burden perspective, anything that weighs particularly heavy on women that that contributes so heavily to burnout? Yes.
Over identifying with your children okay. Over identifying feeling like your children are an extension of you and a reflection of you. Yeah. Burns women out because you can't control that outcome. You can. Yeah. And I think we give ourselves way too much credit. For the negative things and not enough credit for the positive things. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we over identify with our kids and what's, what's helped me and what I've helped a lot of women do is see like they're not an extension of you, they're actually a separate person.
And our job is to water the flower and give it sunshine. That's it. And it's like, oh my gosh, this one's a daisy. Wow. This one's like, you know. Yeah. And let them become who they want to be. Instead of thinking that we can mold our kids into something we can't. Well, and it goes back to what you were saying earlier about perfectionism of, you know, we think that something proves our worth.
And I think that a lot of moms and parents, frankly, yeah, can can see that as what my children turn out as proves that I'm a good person or proves that I'm a good mom. And that's a dangerous game to play. You know, like if they turn out well, then that might work out well for you. Yeah, but if they make two decisions that you don't want, then suddenly you've just had your own sense of self eroded.
There's nothing left of you, right? Because it didn't turn out the way that you wanted it to. Right. And then you're really, really flailing and, and because you're value, you're you're value as a human being is at stake. And so unlocking that to your children's behavior, seeing them as separate people, your job is to water and provide sunlight.
Yeah. And they grow in the way that they do. Yeah. And like I say, our job is to mess our kids up, but unintentionally. Right? Right. Like, right. We're going to mess our kids up. We're going to because it's just a learning laboratory. Yeah, that's all it is. My husband and I joke that we're just going to make a list of the ways that we screw them up as we go, and then they can take that to their therapist when they get older and see them.
So we have we have lifetime therapy. We're is how we make lifetime that go talk to your therapist about it because I mean, I joke and of course no parent wants to do that, but like, you're going to mess up. Oh, yeah. And when they tell you own it and be like, you are so right. Yeah, I should have.
I was so not available during that time. You are absolutely right. Like if parents would just validate what their kids experience was it. Yeah. It's so healing. Yeah. Well so I want to talk a little bit then more about what do we actually do about this. We've talked about some little things along the way. How do you approach this with clients when they come to you.
And and it's obvious both they and you know, that they're suffering from burnout. Are there steps that you go through to kind of figure out what is the the path forward? Yeah. Out of burnout. It's focusing. So I think of relationships as concentric circles. Yeah. Okay. So there's you in the center and then there's your partner if you have one, and then your kids if you have them and are close family members and friends and community and church, you know, on out.
And when you're suffering from burnout you, you go to the core. You, you it's like you have to be the focus. Because you can't serve or give to anybody in the outer circles. If the inner circle is, you know, if you're not enough. Well yeah. So, so it feels really selfish if you know for a lot of people they think it's selfish.
They but it's really about like what do you need. Yeah. To thrive. What do you need? I need a break I need and most people know what they need. But they just don't know how to ask for it or to get a met like, or they don't feel like it's okay to have. Yeah. Or they don't know to claim it for themselves.
Right. They, they feel like someone else is supposed to be meeting their needs. Right. And if that someone else isn't meeting their needs then they're sort of left floundering. Right? Yeah. So it's kind of go to the basics and really like the physical stuff like sleep. Yeah. Eat. Yeah, water, move your body. And then for, for like emotional mental and emotional health journal meditate, have social interactions.
Yeah. Clear everything off your plate. Yeah that it could be cleared off any extra stuff. That's not like a must do. That stuff is so difficult for us as women. But I will say doing what I do oftentimes we see if you don't listen to burnout when it's in your mind and your soul and your heart, your body will eventually catch up with you and your body will slow you down.
It will stop you, and then you'll be forced to clear your schedule. And and so yeah. And the people that you want to take care of will have to take care of you. Yeah. Which sometimes may be a lovely thing, but if we cannot get to that point, I think that's all what we would prefer. So yeah. Okay.
So doing those basics like you mentioned. Yeah. What's the next. The physical, the emotional and then take everything off your plate. That's not. Yeah I have to. I think that's where you start. Yeah. So you and then you're the next rung in the like okay. My partner like I want to maintain this relationship, I need to take care of my kids.
And then building in the support that you need. And even if you feel guilty do it anyway. It's a skill. Yeah. It's a skill to be able to ask for help. Yeah. So you've talked about kind of how we all of these things that are building our capacity back up. It seems to me that these things that are burdening us, that are the most damaging, are the ones that are just spinning in the background.
Right? Yeah. Like making meals is a is a heavy burden for you as a mom and as a, you know, having kids. That's a heavy burden. But I think it's not weighing as strongly as heavily in our psyches and our nervous systems as some of these other ones that we talked about earlier, the perfectionism and that it's really the things that we are trying to control but aren't ours to control.
Yeah, those are the things that are really going to just burn us to the ground the quickest, right? How do we start to identify if we have these thought processes or coping strategies that we're using that are just spinning and spinning and spinning? Perfectionism. I think even just asking someone like, where is perfectionism showing up here that it's not doing any favors?
I think that's pretty easy to identify, but some of these others can be difficult to identify. Is there anything I know that's kind of a vague question, but is there anything that comes to mind of how do we how do we quiet some of these down? So I, I think this is relevant to your question and correct me if I'm wrong.
Byron Katie is an author and she's amazing. And she says there are three kinds of business in life your business, other people's business. And God's business. And God's business is like the unanswerable questions of like, why do tsunamis wipe out villages? Or why do bad things happen to good people? So there's God's business, other people's business and your business.
Yeah. And if you stay in your business and get out of other people's business and God's business, but you can have peace. And I use that a lot with clients and with myself. When they're upset, I ask myself, who's business meand oh my gosh, I'm feeling responsible for my sister and my other sister's relationship. Yeah. Is that my business?
Nope, not my business. Okay, great. So what do you do? What's the next step to that? Because I think the identifying is a little bit easier. You know, where you say like, oh darn it. Like that's not really my business. Yeah. But then the what to do about it is so hard because we want to help. We feel more what not to do.
Yeah. Tell us more. So when big skill is get out of triangles. Get out of being the middleman in relationships and direct people to each other. So for example a lot of parents will talk to their adult children about their marriage. That's not your parents. Marriage is not your business. So you stop talking to your parents about their marriage.
You say sounds like dad that you need to talk to mom. And I'm not willing to have this conversation with you. Yeah. So a lot of this is about stopping doing things that you're doing. Yeah, not not all of it, but some of it is like, get out of those. Just don't do it. Get out of other people's business.
Stop having it's okay to say I'm not willing to have this conversation. I think you need to talk to so-and-so. Yeah, and not taking on other people's emotional burdens that are not yours. Yeah, empathy is different. Being with someone in their pain is different than putting their issue in your backpack and carrying it around. Yeah, yeah, I think that's so good.
And I think we can we can do this. Like I think a therapist can help us do this, right? Like, yeah, for sure. Seeing a therapist can be really beneficial. But I think we can get started on our SEL on our own to say, is this my business? No, this is not my business. Why am what am I trying to do here?
And instead then turning it to labels like I feel sad that this is happening. I feel mad that this is happening to them. This isn't fair that it's happening, like just sort of giving it space to feel what we're feeling, but still not our job. Yeah, still not our job to do something. And it's it's really it can be really helpful to can draw to circles and not like things I can control, things I can't control.
It's really what's my business? What's not my business. Right. Using that, that framework, but kind of what's in my control, what's out. And other people's business and God's business are out of your control. Yeah. Like the only thing you can control is your business. Yeah. And people's perception of us, like you said earlier, that's not our business. Not our business.
Yeah. It's not happening in them. And it's not something we can control. And of course, we want to control it because no one wants to be perceived badly. But it's slow. Me love me. Yeah, it still doesn't make it controllable just because we want to control it. And it takes away from our own piece. Yeah. And it consumes so much mental energy.
Yeah, yeah. And even trying to keep other people happy. Yeah. Like it is not our job to keep our kids happy. No. And that much is very business. Yeah. Like their emotional life is their business. It's our business to teach them skills, to manage emotions, not to manage their emotions. Yeah. And then to be their biggest cheerleader. So you say you've got this.
Yeah, I can do this. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is such a good conversation. I feel like I could keep talking forever. I do want to draw people's, attention to your website because you have a really good free resource on there talking about signs of a healthy self. Oh, yeah, I love that. I'm just going to share some of these because I think they're so great.
I consider the opinions of others, but I make the final decision in my life. I'm generally aware of my thoughts, feelings, needs, and wants. I allow others to think and feel differently than I do. I have a clear sense of priorities and preferences and can clearly express them. I can empathize with others without taking on their burdens.
I can be flexible when things don't go as planned. This is just a really great thought exercise to say like, am I doing these things that are going to keep me in this really healthy pattern? Yeah. So I guess I'll just finish with, is there anything you want to any final message you want to share with the women who are listening of of burnout and just staying in this, keeping that imbalance of the burden and having the capacity to be resilient and really just to be healthy.
Yeah. Just that you matter. And you deserve to get your needs met just as much as anybody else. And you, and you don't have to prove your worth like it exists. And so now what do you want to do. Yeah. Gosh I wish we could wave a magic wand and have that be just deeply internalized in the hearts of all women and everywhere, because it's it's so true and yet it's so difficult.
For some. It's a process. It's a really these are skills that we're talking about today that take practice. But I think for any of us with daughters, like there's no other message that you would want your daughters to internalize is that you're you've already gotten it. You've already matter. Yeah. There's no from here out. Yeah. That you ever have to do to matter more or matter less.
You just you've nailed it. You matter. And and speaking of daughters, when I was growing up, my goal was to live the kind of adult life where my daughters were excited to grow up. Yeah. And to know, like, you can do fun things. You can get your needs met, you can have a say in your life. You can, you know, like, instead of like now other people dictate what how you spend your time.
Other people. Yeah, yeah. And imagining seeing our daughters kind of grow up and sacrifice their whole, you know, talents or their activities or their selves to their children, I think as moms, we wouldn't want that for our daughters. We would want them to maintain their talents and have fun and going, do enjoyable things. And so are we doing that now?
Are we modeling? Who am I being for my like, what am I modeling for adult life to my kids. Yeah yeah. So I felt that one. All right. Well I've got some things to work on. So thank you so much. Y'all doing the process I feel like it feels very optimistic to me. It feels it feels like there's good things.
And for me as a little bit of a perfectionist, I think there's lots of people who can relate. It's more a matter of releasing things. It's not a matter of adding more things to my to do list. It's more a matter of letting these things don't. Yeah, they're not serving me well. So I appreciate your your wisdom and your skill set and your expertise.
So thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. Julie, tell us, where people can find you, where you can follow your your good work that you're doing. Yeah. So Wasatch Family Therapy is my therapy site and we serve primarily Utah, but also Arizona, California, Idaho, Montana. We do virtual with people in those states. And then drjuliehanks.com.
There are lots of resources and then on social media at @drjuliehanks. Wonderful. Well, we'll put all that in the show notes. But thank you again for coming on. This was such an important and I really loved it. I such a good conversation. Thank you. Thanks for the invitation. Thank you so much for tuning into today's episode.
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