Many of us before we become mothers have an idea of what a good mother is, and then we become mothers and realize that we can't actually live up to quote the good mother definition. What is my definition of being a good mother? And have I set myself up for success or for failure?
Some days, I want to soak up every moment with my kids, and I will be honest and confess. Other days, I fantasize about a quiet hotel room and no one needing anything from me. And then I feel guilty no matter which way I lean. So today, I'm opening up about the emotional push and pull that so many of us moms feel but rarely say out loud, that messy middle where we're trying to be everything to everyone and still hold on to ourselves. I am joined by the amazing life coach, Jamie Greenwood. She really focuses on speaking to women who are high achieving, women who have ambitions and dreams and want to do great things with their lives, and also our moms who want to be really great moms. So she is speaking directly to us about this tension, helping us navigate burnout and our self worth and these impossible standards that we're expected to meet.
We're talking about the invisible load, the pressure to perform, the grief of losing parts of yourself while raising these little people you love more than anything. If you are a working mom, a stay at home mom, a woman with big dreams and ambitions trying to keep it all juggling, This conversation is just for you. I get honest and vulnerable. I share some personal things. And my friend, if you've ever found yourself torn between who you are and who you think you're supposed to be and what you want to accomplish, we're talking to you today.
So if this resonates, I would love for you to let us know. Please leave us a review, shoot us a DM on Instagram, share the episode with a friend, or hit subscribe. It helps more women find these conversations and reminds us that we're not alone.
I was pretty sure that motherhood was going to rock my world, but I really didn't know how deeply, how kind of soul shifting it was going to be. And in living through that experience in those early years of motherhood, it was like, oh, my god.
I need an army of people to hold me in this. Well, Jamie, I am so looking forward to talking to you. We were just saying this is just gonna be my personal life coaching session because what we're talking about today is my life. Yeah. And your life too, it sounds like.
Yes. Yes. It is. Tell us a little bit about your coaching focus in general. You really like to focus on helping a kind of overachievers.
Yeah. I think you state it differently. I call them big dreaming high capacity women. That's much better. Otherwise known as overachievers who tend to lean towards perfectionism.
But, you know, those phrases I think kind of bring a negative connotation to them. I like thinking about my clients as big dreaming, high capacity people because they are. And being big dreaming in high capacity is wonderful, except if we lean too hard into how much capacity we think we have. And then suddenly, the well is dry. The capacity is gone, and we're wondering why we feel the way we do, why our life looks the way that it looks.
Why when we're when we think we're doing everything right, none of it feels good. Yeah. You know? Like, all of that, we have to begin to look at when the edges of our capacity begin to fray. Yeah.
Today, we're gonna especially focus on moms. You know, moms who have these big dreams, these big goals. And I think it could be full time working moms like myself, but it could certainly be stay at home moms. It could be moms who are in a hybrid situation. You know, we all have these dreams and all of us have to face the idea.
I don't wanna say struggle because, again, that's that negative connotation, but we all have to live in the tension which is having these separate identities. Right? There's, like, me that's the mom, and then there's me that's the career driven. I wanna in my case, like, I wanna help women. I wanna get the word out.
I wanna be able to do as much as I can. And it definitely comes with some hard things because you want that part of you that drives you and wants you to be accomplished and also wants you to be such a good mom. Yes. And so present for your kids. And make sure that your kids aren't struggling and make sure that you can support them in a way that's going to help their lives. Right?
And then at the same time, you want to do that in your professional life, and that can be conflicting sometimes. Absolutely. I think I think that there is such extreme and I love that word tension. I think there is and struggle. Struggle is real.
I mean, let's just we can just say that and name that. But, like, the struggle is real. We feel it every single day between wanting to be good moms, and we can get into what what we think a quote good mom is. And then what we want for our lives and the visions we have, which are grand and gorgeous, And how do we stay in touch with them while also having this job as mother that is unlike any other job on planet Earth? Yeah.
Mhmm. It is so full on. It is, for my clients anyway and for myself too, like, a complete reorganization of self. And it feels incredibly high stakes because it is. Yeah.
And so when you have one job that's incredibly high stakes, our dreams don't seem as important. Yeah. Right? Because it's just us, and it's hard to put us first when everything is riding on these humans that we've made and are now responsible for. Yeah.
Yeah. I so badly wanna get into the meat, but I want people to know a little bit about you more to to have the context of where you're coming from. How did you become drawn to this group of women, and who are these women that you're taking care of that you're coaching and caring for and supporting? Because I think what I hope to accomplish in this question is I want us to feel seen. You know, I want I want those who are listening to know who we're talking to, and and so give us that example.
Well, first, I just want to thank every single one of my clients that ever hired me before I became a mother. I can't believe any of you listened to me or hired me. Goodness gracious. I have been a coach for a very long time. I've been a coach for almost eighteen years now.
Yeah. I started when I was quite young. And because I just knew that it was the the avenue that I wanted to take to help people. It's amazing. And so I started out as a health coach.
I went back to school, became a holistic health coach, was teaching people about nutrition and food and kind of like holistic wellness. But I just, after a few years, I was kind of bored of the kale conversation. You know, it was like, sure, eat kale, blah, you know. But it was it it was boring. And and what was so interesting to me though was what was underneath that conversation.
How women thought about their bodies. How women thought about their food. How women kind of were getting all wound up with that, and then how do they feed their children. And it just it it was such a bigger conversation. And really, there's it being a conversation around leadership, which is what I am now, a life and leadership coach.
How are we leading in our lives in these different areas? And And I became especially interested in mothers when I became a mother. I have three children. I have a 17 year old stepdaughter and then I have an eight year old daughter and another daughter who is six. So we have a house of girls and, you know, I entered motherhood and I was like, what is this disaster?
What what is this? You know, like, I hate oh, my and I was so I wasn't wrong. I I was pretty sure that motherhood was going to rock my world, but I really didn't know how deeply, how kind of soul shifting it was going to be. And in living through that experience in those early years of motherhood, you know, I have a six year old. She so I still have, like, a young one.
But, you know, living through those first five years, it's like, oh, my God. I need I need an army of people to hold me in this. I I I need so much, and I do have an army of people that hold me to be able to do what I do. But what I found was that the women that I was the other mothers that I was meeting, you know, in daycare, in preschool, and whatever, everyone was just so alone. Everyone was so alone in it.
You know, you say hi and bye at drop off and pick up, and then you're like, you know, for the rest of the day. And I just have no patience for women being unsupported. I have no tolerance for women flailing and for women feeling desperately alone in the parts of their lives that are the hardest. And so that's why I shifted my practice to really to carve out a space for women to not only get support from me, but to get support from each other. To kind of build community around this conversation of motherhood and work and partnership, and also remembering who we are at our core outside of those things.
Yeah. I love that, and I'm so glad you do. It's it's kind of funny because you have your three girls and I have three girls. I'm I'm on the younger end, but I have an eight year old, four year old, and two year old. And then this conversation is particularly relevant for me because we are having our fourth girl, and I'm about halfway through this pregnancy.
And it has it has really rocked our world in all of the good ways and all of the hard ways of how are we gonna balance this. You know? How are we going to keep all of these balls in the air of trying to be all the momness over here and then trying to be all the career over here. So I have these questions we've talked about, but I kind of wanna throw it to you first. Like, where do you even begin?
Where do you even begin? Because that's that's, I think, part of the hardest part about women who are feeling caught up in it is, like, I I don't even know I'm so maxed. I have no capacity. How do I even start to figure this thing out? All I know is that I'm a jumble of nerve and I'm doing okay.
I'm doing okay here. I'm speaking hypothetically. You know, if there was someone in this scenario yes. Exactly. But, you know, you just get in this position where you're a bundle of nerves, but also a bundle of guilt.
And the thing that you thought you wanted the most, which was to be home and to be a mom, now you're just exhausted. And they're overstimulating and they're jumping on you or needing you or and you want to be there, but then at the same time, you kind of don't want to be there at that moment. You know? You want to listen to that advice that sounds so dreamy on the Internet like self care, and that's what you wanna do. You wanna go be by yourself, but at the same time, when would you do that?
Because you just spent all day at work and you only have these hours with your kids. There's, like, when am I supposed to be by myself and when so I I'm gonna let you just jump right in and do what you do, and say, like, where does someone even begin to address this? You're like, I don't know. No. I mean, no.
That's like a sigh. I mean, first of all, that is a sigh of, like, deep appreciation and understanding for kind of where all mothers are in this moment. Yes. Exactly. Goodness gracious.
You know, I start every single one of my coaching calls or my facilitation calls by helping everyone just take a big deep breath because no matter what I I run circles in The US. I run circles internationally. And what I always say is no matter what time of day it is, you've already had a full day. Yeah. And so I just wanna start there with, like, goodness.
I cannot believe what we do. And and if you have young children, you're parenting literally twenty four hours a day Because these children are getting you up in the middle of the night, and then you have to, like, function in the morning. I mean, it's it's obscene. Okay. So there's that.
But the first place because, you know, thank you so much for naming the complexity of this and the real question of where do I even start. This is so huge. It's such a big nut to crack. Like, how would I even start? And where I ask everyone to start is what are your big shoulds?
What are your shoulds? Because it's the shoulds that then help us understand the rules that we think we have to abide by and live by. That now that we are a mother might be killing us. Right? So, like, I should be at home.
At the same time, I should be working. I should be loving every second of this, except now I hate it all. I should be like, you know, it's like, really? Actually, and I have I have clients do this. Make like, what are all of your shoulds?
I mean, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna pose it to you, doctor Mallory. What what is one of your shoulds? I think, like, every moment that I'm not working, I should be taking advantage of that time with my kids. Right? I'm away from them so much and they're so little that that time is theirs.
That time is mine to be a mom. That's a tricky should. It it's it's wonderful and lovely and also a little impossible and also really guilt ridden then if if you don't feel joyous and bubbly and like a a mom of young kids should be. Right? Well, okay.
Let me just peel that one apart because No. We can't get too much into my issues here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Just in general. No. No. No.
Just in general, this idea that a mother with young children should be bubbly and vivacious. Are you kidding me? These children have you up in the night. You're probably eating the crust of their pizza for your dinner. You know, it's like, these are the years, I'm telling you, 2000 to five.
These are just, honestly, survival years. No one says that. These are survival years. You do the best you can with what you have. You just hold on.
Because because their needs are so great that it's hard to ever be on top of it. Right? But you also said something really interesting, which is it's almost like you see your time. And I'm I know that other working mothers feel this way too. It's like your time is is there's only two types of time.
There's work time and there's kid time. Yeah. And that puts you in an impossible bind because if there's no you time, there's actually no way to fill your cup because what we do mistakenly is consider work time to be us time. That's exactly right. Yeah.
And it's not. And I'll also throw out there, you know, for stay at home moms, many, many people in my closest circles are stay at home moms. And I think in some ways, I totally agree with what you're saying that work time feels like it should be me time, but, like, it's not at all. But at the same time, it is non kid time. And so I at least have kid time and non kid time.
And stay at home moms bless the hearts of all women everywhere, which was my mom and and all of my sisters and and many of my closest friends. And they don't they don't even have, like, set aside non kid time. So theirs is just like Yes. Like, that should have, like, I'm with my kids. I'm supposed to be engaged in a certain way.
I I feel for them as well. So this is not just, like, there are some unique things about being a working mom, but but sometimes, I think it's even harder as a stay at home mom to still find that gap of, like, where do you even get a break? I would absolutely argue that all of this can be harder for stay at home moms. Yeah. Because there is even though I do not put work time in the category of of me time, it is, to your point, not kid time, which is essential for any sort of reconnection to ourself.
Right? And that validation outside of the home can be very fueling for us. And if you aren't getting any of that, oh my goodness. It's really, really hard. And also too with with the stay at home parent piece, there's this idea that we are supposed to be loving every moment of our experience with our children, but if we never give ourselves a break, if you never have a moment to kind of remove yourself, there's no way to, like, come back in and and actually genuinely love it.
I don't love anything all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Like, there's even, you know, there is such thing as, like, too much sleep and too much rest and too much chocolate and, like, too like, there are limits.
Right? And I think there is such a thing as, like, too much time with our children Yeah. That leads us to not feel as much joy, which then fuels our guilt. Yeah. So tell us then, how do we kind of get into this mess to begin with?
You mentioned sort of expectations on ourselves and shoulds, but, you know, when you say, like, we have to have some non kid time to recenter ourselves and to remember who I am as a human and not as mom. Right? So how does this become you know, when we first start having kids, you you feel like I am gonna nail this. Like, little nervous. Like, it might be a little, you know, touch and go at times.
I'm sure I'll lose my temper, but, like, I'm gonna be okay. And then you get a little ways in and the juggling begins. And, you know, you start by juggling three balls and then there's five and then there's a thousand. And then there's, like, balls pinging you in the head, and there's balls falling on the floor, and they're coming out of nowhere. Like, how how do we go from, like, juggling three balls to that many balls and feeling so burdened or overwhelmed or out of control?
Well, let me first say this. Having a child, just having a child is life changing and hard. Yeah. But as my partner, Adam, and I always say, two or more children is a thousand more children than one child. Yeah.
Right? Like, no shade to families that only have one child. It is it is a lot of work. But when you have more than one child, you have a thousand more children. And, like, I've never seen anyone juggle 1,000 balls.
I have never seen that. It is not possible. And so, you know, to your question, like, how did we get into this? It's like, well, we had kids. That was their first mistake.
You know? Like, I I love my children if you're listening to this. I love you very much. I'm very glad I had you. But, like, you know, like, that's how there's no one so I just ran I just ran an in person retreat, for eight working mothers, in my home.
And and it was wonderful. And one of the conversations, though, that came up was, did anyone get a well written and honest job description about motherhood? Did anyone anyway, it was like a pulse check. It's like, did anyone feel like they really understood the job description? And everyone was like, absolutely not.
I, I completely either I misread the job description or I was never given the correct one. Right? And I think the truth is that none of us are ever given the correct job description. And, and we talked about that. Like, why, why did none of us really understand what we were getting into?
I think there are a lot of reasons for that. One is I think I think that there is this, like, myth of the happy mother that no other mother wants to break for a new mother. Mhmm. We don't want to rain on her parade. We don't wanna tell her the truth of, like, the insanity that awaits her.
But I think it sets us up for mothers feeling very ashamed and guilty when they can't juggle all of the balls and when they can't find joy in every single moment. I I mean, that is a huge part of my coaching is helping mothers come to terms with their ambivalence, come to terms with feeling both, you know, joy and sadness, supreme love, and sometimes hate. Like, holding all of these things, while we're trying to be, like, the best that we can. I think we also get sucked into this because many of us before we become mothers have an idea of what a good mother is. And then we become mothers and realize that we can't actually live up to quote the good mother definition without killing ourselves.
Yeah. You know, and that's actually where, you know, for everyone listening, just to start thinking about, like, what what is my definition of being a good mother and have I set myself up for success or for failure? You know, one of the definitions of being a good mother is what? Endlessly patient. She's endlessly patient.
Okay. Failed. I I have failed. Right. I have Right.
Like, I'm already a bad mom because by 09:05 in the morning, I am no longer patient because no one is listening to me. No one's getting dressed. No one's putting on their shoes. No one's eating breakfast. You know, it's like it's impossible.
Yeah. You know, I'm curious. Like, what is one of your definitions of a good mother? Well, that's what I was thinking. Like, the importance of kind of really thinking about it and then owning it and using that as an anchor.
Because if I'm being philosophical, you know, if I'm talking with my husband about general approaches to parenting, and and we do and have, I think one of the things that comes up over and over is we just want our kids to know how loved they are. You know, we just want our kids we wanna get to know them instead of make them into someone. We wanna get to know who they are and that was actually one of my favorite pieces of parenting advice we received from one of my old colleagues was, I think the best approach to parenting is to get to know who your kids are and then help them to be more of that. And I had very tiny kids at the time and now I still have tiny kids and it's something that I keep coming back to. But that definition of parenting is not what's giving me guilt.
Like, that's not the thing that I feel like I'm failing at day in day out. You know? I I don't feel like I'm failing day in day out. But, you know, the things that make me feel like, oh, I wish I was better. It for me, one of the things that haunts me constantly is time, you know?
And that's my I got time scarcity issues. It's it's a known it's a known thing. But that's one of the things that is so hard for me is is I don't have enough time. And it it really leads me to one of the questions that I wanted to ask you, which is really relevant to where we're at in this conversation is how do we ever become satisfied? How do we ever feel content?
Because I feel like that's at the root of where a lot of this comes from is as someone who has big dreams and big goals in parenting and in your personal life and in serving community and in, you know, contributing to society. Like, many of us have these really big goals of, like, I feel like I have something to offer. I have this skill set. I want to share. I want to have a voice.
I want to go out and do. Right? And then I also wanna be a good mom. And yet, this idea of being satisfied and being content is something that haunts me of, like, I'm I'm pretty proud what I've built at Uplift for her. You know, I've built this clinic and continuing to build, and I'm serving women, and yet feel like it's not enough.
And then over here, I constantly feel like I'm dropping the ball by not being there twelve hours a day, eighteen hours a day, twenty four hours a day. You know? However long I'm there, it's just I will always feel like because I spent some time at work that it's not enough for my children, you know. And it's not even that I'm worried about them caring. It's just this this, you know, haunting feeling of, like, I should have been there more.
So that's my own personal, you know, vulnerabilities. But how do we just get to the point of feeling content with where we're at when we also have these big goals and dreams and aspirations? And and is that is that the question? I mean, is that the thing that we're really trying to get to? I think that's absolutely the question.
And we have to begin to look at what keeps us unsatisfied. Yeah. If what we're seeking is satisfaction, which is just I mean, even that word when we let it, you know, just take a minute to, like, feel into what it would honestly feel like to be satisfied. I mean, the whole nervous system just calms down. Your shoulders relax.
You're like, oh, satisfaction. Okay. You know? And so we have to look at what keeps us unsatisfied. And and and I think it's tremendously important to remove ourselves from our own little worlds first and look at the larger picture.
Right? If you are living in The United States Of America, you know, we run on an economic system of capitalism. And capitalism is you are only winning if you are growing and producing. Right? Like you are only useful.
You are only good enough if you are in a state of perpetual growth and expansion. Now that, first of all, doesn't work for anyone. Nothing nothing on planet Earth is actually in a state of perpetual growth and production. Right? Like seasons.
We we plant in the spring. Things grow in the summer. They then fall down in the fall. They die in the winter, and then they come back up. There's a whole season.
We don't ever let ourselves as humans have seasons. So that's number one, which keeps us tremendously unsatisfied because we think that we are supposed to be maintaining levels of constant production and growth, which is impossible. So we're already losing, which keeps us unsatisfied. And then there's the idea that we're supposed to also, like, to your point, I'm supposed to be working all the time and building and growing and getting my voice out there because I have so much to offer, which is absolutely true. I'm also supposed to be home twenty four seven with my children.
Right? So when we're seeking the satisfaction, we have to first take out and pull apart and really challenge, really bravely challenge the systems and the thought patterns that keep us feeling unsatisfied. That keep us feeling like we're not doing enough. Yeah. Right?
So, I mean, that is where I always start. And another thing that I talk a lot about with clients that are really seeking satisfaction is letting ourselves have moments or seasons of sustaining. Right? Like, if we are allowed to just be sustaining, there's satisfaction there because we don't feel like we're missing the goal that we are being lazy, But we're also not backtracking. Right?
We're just like in a season of what is is enough. You know? And I would say that for seasons of sustaining, you know, there are different areas of our life. Right? There's work life and there's family life and then there's, you know, their personal relationships.
In some area of your life, you're going to be growing. But if we're growing in too many areas of our life at once, that's when we hit resentment. That's when we hit overwhelm. That's when we hit burnout. Hey.
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Your support means the world to us. Now back to the show. You know, I see these patients in my clinic of, like they tell me what's going on in their lives, and it's like, well, my teenager is in on a national dance team, and so we travel every week. But, also, I have a full time job, but, also, I wanna volunteer, you know, at my my younger child's school and also also also also also. And there are those of us who are kind of wrapped up in this that it's like, yes, I hear what you're saying, and yes, I still wanna do all of these things.
I just wanna do it happier. Like, I just wanna be happier doing it. We have to be really honest with ourselves in saying, like, there's too much. It's too much. Like you just said, like, we can't be growing in every single aspect all the time.
You know? I I can't be building muscle at the same time that I'm losing weight, at the same time that I'm getting a promotion at work, at the same time that I'm trying to help my kid, you know, through their challenges at the same time that I'm working on my marriage. Like, that's why we're all feeling burned out is because it's just an impossible equation, and we keep looking for the same equation but with a different thing on the equal sign. Right? Yes.
Like, we line up the same numbers over and over and we think if we switch them, like, if it's one plus two plus three, instead if I do three plus two plus one, that's gonna change what it equals on the other side. And it's like, we at some point, we have to be really honest with ourselves of letting some part search and say, do you know what? This is the time of my life that I'm focusing on on being a mom. And so I'm not gonna grow in my career. I can still have it.
I can still do those things. But maybe it's not the time that I'm driving for the promotion or the opposite. Like, my kids are at a pretty good phase. Like, I am gonna let dad chip in more. I'm gonna let grandma chip in more, and and I'm gonna pay someone for this type of childcare while I say, like, this is the time that I'm really gonna focus on that.
What what are your thoughts on that? Is that kind of what your the direction you're going in? That's exactly what I'm saying. That's exactly right. And to do that, we have to give ourselves such gracious permission.
Yeah. No one I'll tell you right now. No one in your life is gonna be like, yeah. Just put some things down. Like, the entire family system runs on women's labor.
Yeah. And what we're saying is I actually need to put some of that labor down. No one is going to praise you for that. No one's going to be thrilled for you. That's why this is that's why we don't do it.
Right. Especially for those of us that are people pleasers. This is not going to be popular in your family. Yeah. But it's actually necessary for the health of your family.
And it's necessary if you want to ever touch upon satisfaction. Mhmm. And feeling like it's enough. We we feel satisfied when we have areas in our lives where we're winning. But if we have to growth actually means risk.
It means that we're not necessarily winning. It means we're feeling vulnerable. It means we're living on the edge a little bit. That's wonderful, but only if it's the right time in that specific area. Yeah.
Right? Like yeah. I mean It's hard. Yeah. It's hard because you're like, I don't want that.
I wanna grow at both of them at the same time. Yes. And there's just a reality there, and I think it's the fighting of reality then that leads to burnout and overwhelm and loss of happiness is because you're fighting against reality. Like, you're fighting against that fact. And I will fully admit, like, even though, like, logically, I get this, what you're saying, I have a lot of resistance to it because if I'm actually looking at my own life, I'm like, I don't have any of those that I can put down.
Like, how could I how could I do that? Like, how could I be, you know, satisfied with just, like, ditching my kids right now? Like, how could I be satisfied with not putting my attention over here? There's there's I just I only bring that up to say, like, I get that there's resistance there. You know?
I think another thing that makes it really hard is there is a little bit of a like, we're we're set up for hard things here. Right? Like, I think about, okay. Well, what can I let go of this tight hold on everything having to be great all at the same time? Well, maybe my house.
Like, maybe I pay someone to clean it or maybe I don't mind if there's a couple things out and about. And the hard part is or or, you know, having this new baby, I've had a lot of people that are like, oh, sweetie. You just gotta, like, let your kids like, if you need to feed them nachos and put them in front of the TV, like, that's what you do. And it's like, I don't disagree with that. Like, there are times that you just do whatever you need to do.
But on the flip side of that, mom pays the price for that. Right? Because if they're then hyperstimulated because you haven't been getting them out of the house or they're then, like, hopped up on sugar because you didn't feed them vegetables. Like, mom's the one that has to pay that price. If you don't clean your house and now it's messy and then you're overstimulated because there's now stuff around, then you're like, well, I tried to put that thing down.
It backfired. It didn't work. I gotta pick that thing back up, and I gotta start juggling that ball again. So talk to us about kind of what feels a little bit impossible, but also that frank reality of, like, you can't do it. You just you the the math doesn't add up.
The math does not add up. And, you know, knowing this is important to remember too. When we put something down, it doesn't mean we're never going to pick it back up again. Yeah. Yeah.
That's really important. Right? You know, if you're having a brand new baby and you have three other children that are young, for the first three weeks of that new baby's life, maybe there's more TB than usual. Yeah. Right?
But it's not, it's not, this is not the new normal. This is like in the very beginning when we're just trying to figure out who this new, who this new life is. And so, you know, we're kind of flipping it a little bit. Keeping people alive. Yeah.
We're keeping people alive. All right? That's all we're doing here. And I think it's also really important as a parent to understand what, like, what are your non negotiables? Mhmm.
Right? Like, for some of us, maybe, like, screen time is, like, no. That that's not where I'm gonna let it slide or it is Or food, that's not where I'm gonna let it slide or it is. Like, we're finding out what is a non negotiable for you is really helpful to then understand what you can put down. Now if everything is a non negotiable, then we have to have a larger conversation.
Yeah. You know, around perfectionism. Mhmm. Because if we believe that everything has to be a certain way, then we don't ever get to break out of this equation that actually doesn't add up. Mhmm.
Like, we have to be able to be okay with things not being exactly as we had hoped and wished and dreamed. And that's where that contentment comes in. Right? That satisfaction is if you're continually fighting reality or you you keep your eye focused on this outcome that, you know, your path has morphed. Like, it's not going there anymore.
It's going you know, over here, you've kinda changed direction. If you just keep driving towards some other outcome, then you're it's gonna be really hard to feel content and satisfied and at ease and, like, you're not needing to constantly change and change and change. Yes. And really also looking at the and we we've said this in a number of different ways already, but looking at the internal expectations that you have for yourself. Mhmm.
Like, are your internal expectations reasonable or unreasonable? Yeah. If you are suffering, your internal expectations are unreasonable. I think you need to say that part again because that is so so important. If you are suffering, your internal expectations are unreasonable.
We don't wanna hear that. I know. I'm sorry. No. I mean, it's so good.
We don't wanna hear that that's the problem. You want to find the external solution. Well You know, when you're suffering, you're like, someone fix this for me. And that that's the raw truth is like, yeah, but it's inside. Well, let's also not forget external expectations.
Right? The whole, like, idea of how mothers are supposed to be. Also, the fact that we're supposed to, like, be working full time without any sort of, like, paid you know, we have no paid parental leave in this country. There's no, like, universal childcare. Like, there are systematic problems here that are external factors that lead to our unhappiness.
So let's not forget that. Yes. I am certainly not the type I am not the type of coach that's, like, everything is inside of you. You're the problem. You have to fix it.
Exactly. There's lots of there are lots of factors. However, where we have the quickest amount of power and agency is looking inward and saying, okay, what are the internal expectations that I have set for myself that are leading to my profound struggle and disappointment? You know, I mean, one of them for me, I mean, I was a holistic health coach before becoming a life and leadership coach. So food and, like, whole organic unprocessed food for my children is profoundly important to me.
Mhmm. However, there are now days of the week where my children eat things that before I had children, I would say, oh, I would never. Oh, they would never. You know, now I'm like, ladies, you grab that burrito. I don't I don't even care.
The meat doesn't even have to be organic. I don't even care. Like, just you eat it and you go to bed. Like, that's you know? So, you know, that is a place where I personally, just to share a personal example, have really, really had to look at my internal expectations and realize, like, with my work schedule, with now having I have three children that go in three different directions every single morning.
I am not able to live up to the internal expectation I have for food preparation. Yeah. I'm gonna do the best I can. But sometimes, some nights, it's just gonna drop. It's gonna be popcorn dinner, people.
It's popcorn dinner. And that's that's that's where we're at. I love that. And I think it goes back to what you said earlier as being anchored to your when speaking about motherhood, being anchored to your idea of, like, what does it mean to you to be a good mom? Because for me, if it means, like, my kids know they're loved, then that burrito isn't isn't out of alignment with that goal.
You know? Mhmm. If my if I think that my definition of being a good mom is that they will never eat junk food and that they will go to bed on time and have perfect systems and get perfect grades and, you know, like, that that that's unreasonable. Like, that's when you have unreasonable expectations. You're never going to meet them.
You're never gonna be satisfied by that. And so really narrowing it down to, like, what are your big, big key pillars of what it means to you to be a good mom of, like, what how you want to show up as a mom in their lives is what I'm hearing you saying is anchor to that and and then let some of the other stuff go when when it doesn't work out as well as you'd like. You can still aim for it and have these things, but that idea of being perfect at it, I think, is what really causes us the angst. Absolutely. And in making that list of, like, what is a good mom?
What do I think a good mom is or does? As you're reading them, if any of these things seem unreasonable like, if you were an outsider looking in and you're like, oh, that's profoundly unreasonable. Yeah. You know, consider consider letting it go. I mean, one of the things I had on my list besides, like, a good mom is is someone who's endlessly patient.
I think often women also have, like, a good mom is is a mom who's always happy. And to your point, like, I have young children. I should be like a bottle of champagne. It's like, what? You're not gonna be that bubbly.
You crazy? But, you know, the idea that I will forever and always be joyous in every situation. I will find delight in everything my children do. Like, it's it was really unfair. And when I began to look at that and realize, like, no.
I I'm just gonna be honest. I don't find delight in everything that my children do. And if that's again, going back to if I if I'm no longer gonna fight reality, then I can I have to let it be okay that I'm not gonna love every moment of this experience? I am not gonna love everything that my kids do. And it's it has to be okay because it just is what it is.
Yeah. And I can't jam myself back into this definition of what a good mother is because that definition actually is based off of false pretenses of how I thought a woman is supposed to be in this role. I just have to say, like, as a side, this is why I'm such a fan of coaching is because to figure out what that your brain is doing this on the inside on your own is really difficult. I mean, you can try it through journaling and making lists, but you kinda need someone to call you on your crap sometimes and to say, like, like, make a list of for me of all of the expectations that you put on yourself that that mean you are doing this right as a mom. Right?
Like, tell me. What's on that list? And then as you start listing it because these are the things that haunt us subconsciously. Right? Like Yes.
I'm subconsciously haunted every time I don't give my kids a meal that's full of vegetables and fruits and lean protein. Right? Like, I'm constantly haunted by every time I put my kid in front of a screen. I'm constantly haunted by I don't have older kids, so I don't have very good examples there. But, you know, anytime that you you weren't there when they they needed to talk about their hard day at school or whatever, If if we're haunted by those in the background, you gotta bring those to the foreground.
You gotta put those out and then look at them on paper and be like, oh, that's probably unreasonable. You know? And if you can't get there by yourself, to have a coach say, like, do you if you were talking to your best friend and she said, well, this is my list, would you think that was reasonable for her? Like, we really do need that external source sometimes to reflect back to us and help us figure this stuff out that's going on in our brains because it is causing emotional responses back in the background. And if you don't if you don't see those cogs in the machine, all you see is the outcome of the machine, and you're not happy with the outcome, but you have no clue what's going on in your psyche, how to change it, why you're doing the things that you do.
You I I mean, obviously That's what you do. That's what I do. It's why it is it is the work of my life, and I think it is so profoundly important, especially especially when it comes to motherhood. Yeah. And and because there's so many ways in which I mean, one of the things we haven't named, which which I will now, are, like, the gifts of motherhood.
And I think that one of the gifts is this invitation to look inward, is this invitation to be say, I'm being challenged in these number of areas. I wanna be different. What's happening inside of me? And and whose support do I need to really explore this so I can be the best mom that I say I want to be? Right?
And it does not happen by just defaulting to old habits or patterns. Like one of the biggest gifts of motherhood for me has been to, like, look myself in the mirror and it's like, all right, we're going to have to look at some hard things here. You did something really yucky yesterday. You screamed and you yelled. That was gross.
And you said you never wanted to do that. Why did that happen? Oh, it's because I had an expectation that did not get met. Where was that expectation based from? When did that thought even first sent to your mind?
Oh, that's from my childhood. Okay. Like it's this when you begin to make these connections, you free yourself up to begin to redefine yourself and how you want to show up at home, at work, in your partnerships, with your family. It's really incredible. It's so incredible.
And I think so many people I've talked to people about coaching before who are like and they say the same thing about, like, New Year's resolutions. Like, I'm I don't want to keep driving to improve and set these goals and then fail them. Like, I just wanna be fine with who I am. And I love that what you're saying because it's not like that. In this case, you know, you're not talking about constantly having to be better or to be different than what you are.
You're saying to be more in tune and and in tune with yourself and true to who you really are and letting go of baggage. So it's not trying to change into someone else. It's trying to let go. It's trying to let that truest version come out, I think, is what you're saying. Yes.
Absolutely. I deeply that is the crux of my coaching and the crux of of, I think, the work that is needed specifically right now in this moment in time for women is to remember who they are. Yeah. Right? I mean, we can just spend hours of our lives on Instagram, on TikTok, learning on learning all the things that we should be doing.
I'm not interested in any of that. I don't care about any of that. I want to know who are you, what do you care about outside of all the rules and regulations and expectations that were dumped upon you from the moment you were born. I want to know who you are at your core. And then we build from there because, you know, those are the mothers that we want.
You know, one of one of the things that I say to my children a lot, and they don't love this, but one of the things I say to them, you know, like a perfect example, my children do not eat one breakfast. They eat like three. And, you know, I feed them breakfast and then I'm done. And then they're like, I'm hungry. I need more blah.
And then I give them that, and they're like, I'm hungry. I need more blah. And I'm like so usually, by second breakfast, I say, you know what? It's mama's turn now. I haven't had any breakfast yet.
I'm gonna feed myself. And if you're still hungry after that, I can give you more food. And I do this in different areas throughout the day when I'm with them of, you know what? I just helped you. Now it's my turn to help me.
I'm gonna focus on me now. And it is not their favorite thing to hear. But I do it, one, because they need to remember that I am not their servant. I am actually a human with feelings. And also, I want them when they grow up and they decide to be mothers, which they've this is a miracle.
They've all said that they want to be mothers. However, they've all said they're only gonna have they've all said they're only gonna have one child. They're like, yeah. Yeah. We'll be moms, but we're only having one kid because this, like, more than one kid is just stupid.
But but they I want them when they are adult women to know that they can answer their own needs. They can be in tune enough to know what they need and then give themselves permission to give it to them. So I model for them every day what it both looks like for me to be there for them, but also what it looks like for me to be there for myself. Yeah. Yeah.
I love that. While you were talking, it made me think I just had a a girl's night last night with some girlfriends, and we don't get to do it very often because all of us are moms and busy. But we we got together last night, and it just made me think the contrast between what we do with social media is we take in all this information, but we don't get a chance to think about it. We don't get a chance to process it, to voice it, to think like, what do I think about that? How am I feeling about it?
And contrast that to last night sitting around for hours with my girlfriends and sharing, you know, shared hard things and shared, beautiful things and the things we're happy about and the things that we're struggling with. And we need to voice that. You know? We need to to be with other women and to talk about it and to say, like, how do I feel about that? And I think with social media and, you know, the pandemic and and all of that really changed things for us that we became more isolated and we became more by ourselves.
And we think that, you know, me seeing my friend's Instagram account or her pictures of her family, we kind of feel like then we have a connection. But we're totally missing that truer connection, which is both people sharing and hearing new perspectives, but also sharing my perspective. So that that struck me hearing you say that. That's exactly why I do what I do. So I don't just have a one on one practice, but I run mother's wisdom circles.
I love that. Be for this exact reason. It's not that we need to keep up with people via Instagram and, like, like their pictures and then we're connected. No. We have to sit either across from people in person or sometimes I run circles on Zoom.
But to have a con a container, a specific container where you are being held in a space where you can talk about the realest of real things among other people who get it. Yeah. None of us have this unless we have sought it out specifically. And I'm so glad. Yeah.
And maintained it. I'm I'm so glad that you had a girls night last night and that that's what it was. Because what I also hear from my clients is that girls nights sometimes don't go as deep as they need to. Yeah. Like like they stay surface level.
And the level of hunger for realness right now, I mean, it's it's off the charts. Yeah. And all of us without it are really kind of suffering in silence. So thank you for bringing that point up. I think I mean, obviously, I think it's so deeply necessary.
And and especially around this conversation of I'm not loving motherhood right now. I'm not loving parenting right now. Can I love my children but hate parenting? Like, we have to be able to have these conversations because I believe that they actually make us better parents. Mhmm.
Mhmm. I I 100% agree. We're we have a little more time, but not much. What are we missing here? What are the things that you take care of?
You're you're helping women through these processes. What are the things we haven't talked about? Either tools or things that people need to understand, women need to understand about keeping this balance of of I won't just say work and and mom life because I do wanna speak too to those stay at home moms, but that mom life and everything else maybe is the way to say it. If you are feeling like it is all too much, it is. Yeah.
And the reason why I say that is because for for the women that I know, they're all they also have such high capacity that when it feels like too much, they just think that they're being lazy. Yeah. When it feels like too much, they just think that there's something wrong with them, and they need to buck up and double down and go harder. Exactly. And that is the exact opposite.
I want everyone who's listening to trust themselves that when it feels like too much, oh, it is. Yeah. Oh, it really is. And it's not that you need to change. It's that something needs to be moved around.
Yeah. Right? You don't need to somehow get bigger, better, stronger, work harder, more. If I hear another, like, how to hack blah blah blah. Nope.
No. We are hacking nothing. Like, even think about that word, to hack. Like, it's like to like tear apart and like to, to break up. Like, I don't, I don't want any of that.
I want, I want us to like really look at where do we need to be brave. Yeah. And say this system isn't working for me. The family structure isn't working for me. The amount of work coming my way in four different directions isn't working for me.
And trust that you know yourself. Mhmm. You know yourself. Like, that's self trust is one of the biggest pieces in all of this. Yeah.
I love that. I the other day had we have very busy lives right now, and I had a moment that was the kids were, like, happily playing in the other room and didn't didn't care that I wasn't there, which doesn't always happen. My husband was gone, and it was I just was sitting there for a minute and realized it, like, kind of hit home and thought, what if I just sit here for a minute and, like, look out the window and be still? And it felt so weird. And I even was like, I'm not gonna sit here for an hour.
Like, I'm gonna sit here for five minutes. I couldn't do it. I mean, I I kind of did, but I kept thinking like, oh, yeah. I need to make that list of thing. Oh, grab my phone.
Add the no. No. No. Oh, I needed to look up. No.
Put my phone away. Oh, I needed to like, it was so and then I'd be like, oh, I should go do that laundry. And just to, like it was so surprising to me to sit and realize how hard it is for us to just be still and even spend the time, like you're saying, to say, this is too much. What can I put down? We're so driven that we're like, it's not too much.
Like, I just need to do more. What else can I add on? And and so it's really it's really ironic, and bless our hearts, right, for for being for doing big things and accomplishing big things, but I just hope we don't sacrifice ourselves in the process. And we just have to be really honest like you're saying and say, like, if it's too much, it's too much. There's not a there's not a hack.
There's not the magical solution that allows you to fit, you know, eight more hours in your day. You you have what you have and maybe that's okay. Like, maybe it's okay if you do a little less. Like, maybe you'll still be just as good of a person and just as good of a mom And that made me tear up, so there must be some truth there. Like Yes.
Yes. And I really I really appreciate you naming how difficult it is to be still. Like it is it can be excruciating. Like, thank you for naming the excruciating nature of sitting still. It is because we're driven, but it's also because this is how we've been habituated.
Let's go back to the economic system of our country. Capitalism. Like, we are not supposed to sit still. And honestly, this country grinds to a halt if women all stand still. Yeah.
Okay? Like like, let's be honest about that. So it's it's incredibly hard, but this is actually where you want to embrace the challenge Yeah. Of sitting still. I had the I did a very, very similar thing, and I found myself in a moment where yeah.
My children normally do not play well together. Normally, they are, like, drawing blood on each other's faces. Like, they're I have to honestly, I have to keep everyone nail everyone's nails short. Like, it is so it is violent over here. But they were they were, like, you know, building something with magna tiles.
And I sat down, and I just started breathing. Because normally, I I do breathing exercises, and I do have quiet moments, but it's usually when the kids are at school. Yeah. And so it was a unique moment of being able to find presence and connection in their presence, which is actually when we need it most. Yeah.
Right? Like like when we talk about regulation, when we talk about wanting to be the calm, connected parents that we hope to be, it's because it's when we're able to find stillness in ourselves, in their presence. And so to be able to do that, I mean, I just I was like, oh, this is the magic. This is the magic. But it's, it's not always easy to do the thing that's simple.
Like it's simple, but it's, it's not easy. Yeah. And I, I'm going to give a little bit of inspiration for anyone who's, toying with the idea of getting off of social media. I have been off of Instagram for two years and it has changed my life. I am still I am actually I would argue I am more deeply connected to the people I need to be deeply connected to than I was then.
Yes. I have missed out on saying happy birthday to people. I've missed out on, like, engagement announcements and new babies being born. But, like, it's okay because I'm more present when I'm with the people in my life. Yeah.
We don't we forget we have choice. If I leave you with anything, like, don't forget that you have choice. You have agency here. You are not a servant to your phone. Yeah.
Like, be brave and, like, put it down. I mean, I since being off of Instagram, I lose my phone all the time. I just and I take that as a good sign. Like, I'm not For sure. It's I'm not on a leash anymore.
I just put it down. I'm like, meh. We'll see if I need it. You know? I love that.
I love that. It's something I've thought a lot about, and it's it's tricky with business because I'm on there for my for my business. And but inevitably, I end up going down weird rabbit holes. Like, I mean, my rabbit holes are, like, funny animals, so they're not that scary rabbit holes. But still, like, you realize this is so overstimulating and you realize how much you grab it, like you're grabbing for it, reaching for that stimulation or that that boost of happiness of from external sources.
And, you know, instead of thinking, like, who do I care about in my life and who can I send a text to or who can I send a card to or, you know, those things, you can't really do both very well? You can't spend however many minutes or hours on social media or the news or whatever else and still have time to connect in other ways. Like, there's limited time, so you kind of have to choose how you're going to connect to people in the world Yes. One way or the other. Yes.
I'm I'm so glad you brought that up because I think that's such a good example. Is there anything as we wrap up, any final, thoughts that you wanna share with women is who who may be struggling with this tension between focusing on being a mom but also wanting to focus on dreams and aspirations and growth and ambition? I invite you to become ruthless ruthless with your time and, in particular, ruthless with what is most important to you in this stage of your life. And that can change in six months. But, like, for example, right now my youngest child has needed a lot of extra attention.
We've been having a lot of, like, behavioral stuff going on. I mean, it has just, like, sent the whole family for a loop. Right? And I was like, okay, Jamie. Like, I had grand plans of starting to write a book this year.
Oh, no. Oh, no. Because because when I was getting down to, like, the ruthlessness of my time, she is my priority over any book I would ever write. Yeah. So so I put the work piece on hold.
I didn't, you know, I didn't close-up shop. I'm still talking to all my clients. I'm still facilitating all my leadership circles. But that other piece of, like, up leveling in my work, it's like, nope. This is not the moment.
Mhmm. This is not the moment. And also I knew sometimes you have to fight for the moment. Mhmm. I knew that I didn't wanna fight for the book.
I wanted to fight for her. That's so key there. Yeah. You're not a victim of it. You you're making that choice willingly.
I am making the choice. I will not be a victim to this circumstance. I refuse. And so I just had to remind myself again and again what matters most to me right now, and that is the well-being of my children above all else. So that's where I needed to focus the extra time that I had put aside for something else.
Yeah. So I just I want to leave you with one, it's scary, but do it. Be ruthless. Be ruthless of what you care about most and know that that might change, but you're allowed to let it be true for whatever it is in this moment. And two, no one, none of you are alone in any of this.
When you feel alone, that means you need to reach out immediately. Because however you're feeling, there are 100,000 other mothers that are feeling the exact same way. Yeah. I love that. I'm so glad you're here, and I'm so glad you're doing the work that you're doing.
We need support, and we need help. And there is something so magical about connecting with other women and feeling so validated and so heard, you know, to go to someone like a coach and not have them say, like, you should probably just relax. Like, you should probably just stop it. Like, it's so validating to have a voice like yours out there, so thank you for doing the work that you're doing. Will you share with listeners where they can find you?
Yes. You can find me on my podcast, which is called The Path Home. You can also find me on my website, which is jamiegreenwood.co. And if you go and sign up for my newsletter, you get something called the where to now map. And this is wonderful.
If you have had some realizations, you're like, okay, I know I need to change some things, but like where to now? What do I do now? The where to now map can really help you outline where you go once you've realized that you want some things to change. So those are the best places. I do have an Instagram presence, but it's just like my face.
Like, I don't I haven't again, I haven't posted in two years. See them you. Yeah. Don't no. Please.
My sister did recently. She's like, how come you're not listening? I'm like, text me, lady. I'm not on Instagram. Anyway.
Yes. Well, thank you for being here. It's been such a good conversation. I really appreciate you. Oh, what an honor.
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