If you know how to soften edges, if you know how to bring the situation down, these are important skills. The issue is when we live in what I would call like a crouched people pleasing position..
Hello and welcome back. This is going to be a really fun episode, in large part because of our guest, Jamie Greenwood, who is just hilarious and fun and super enjoyable to talk to, so it's going to be really fun, but we are talking about something that a lot of women struggle with, and that's people pleasing. I think one of the things we struggle most with around people pleasing is that it feels good in a lot of ways, it feels like the right thing to do, but then we can always see when it tips too far, where it's not the right thing to do. So we are diving in and talking all about people pleasing the good parts of it and the bad parts of it, how it helps us and how it hurts us. We're also talking about why we do it. Why would we do that, and what it means about us and showing up as our authentic selves, taking up space, being confident. So I think it's going to be a really good conversation. We also talk about how underneath people pleasing. It's often about this idea of connection, fear, identity or safety. We really want to give people what they want, to be happy, avoid conflict and stay in good standing with them. Most of us as women have been socialized to really keep things smooth. Just don't rock the boat, don't be too big, don't take up too much space, and we're talking about what we do about it. So Jamie Greenwood is a life coach, and she brings such a clear and compassionate perspective to what people pleasing costs us, why boundaries can feel so uncomfortable, and how we can begin shifting without moving away from this idea of being kind and charitable, but also bringing in honesty and this idea of taking up space. So I hope you'll stay here with us. It's going to be a great conversation, and let us know if you like it. Give us some feedback. Share with a friend. We'd love to hear from you. We always love hearing from you. And let's get started.
It's gorgeous and it's wonderful, and it's also utterly life consuming and exhausting. And while I think more of us are giving voice to that, we're not always given tools on how to deal with that.
Well, Jamie, thank you so much for coming back. We had such a fun chat last time you were here, and we're excited to talk to you. So thanks for being here.
My complete pleasure.
We are talking about something that I think is really going to resonate with a lot of women, and that's this idea of people pleasing. Now, people pleasing is really interesting. I was having a conversation with a friend of mine once about emails about how we say, I just wanted to, you know, we put these extra words in, like, if it's not too much trouble, would you mind instead of just saying, please send me the thing. And it was interesting because her response was, Well, what's wrong with saying, I just wanted to or, like, what's wrong with softening the language? And so maybe that's a good kick off of talking about this idea of people pleasing. Is what exactly is people pleasing? And why do we do it? Why do we feel the need to soften things, you know, to to apologize for, things to make other people feel more comfortable and and what's so wrong with that? It'll just throw you in, right?
Thank you. Well, let me
say this, I don't always think that people pleasing is wrong. I actually think when used strategically, it's a superpower. If you know how to soften edges, if you know how to bring the situation down, these are important skills. The issue is when we live in what I would call like a crouched people pleasing position, right, when we we take on, kind of like a shape our body takes on a shape of people pleasing, which is usually smaller, more contracted, not wanting too much space. Is it okay? If Do you mind? Sometimes we do like you're we take on a persona of asking to just breathe sometimes to kind of asking for permission to be and in terms of people pleasing, many of us have been socialized to do this from a very early age, especially women, right? And in many ways, it keeps us it keeps us safe. And I think that the reason why people start emails that way, or any communication that way, is that they're just not trying to have any issue at all. If they can just come off as sweet as pie, there won't be any problem. Except, I mean, sure you are avoiding a problem, maybe, but also you're showing. Up in this pre crouched position, you're showing up already kind of giving away
your power a bit. Yeah, apologizing for for existing, you know, sorry, I'm about to enter your day.
Sorry, I'm going to take a breath and ask you a question right now, and we can live that way. But is it the most fulfilling way to live? Is it the most empowering way to live? You know, the other issue with people pleasing is that it puts our constant focus on the other we're always monitoring other people instead of checking in with what's true is, for me, what do I need in this moment? That doesn't mean that we are only thinking about ourselves and suddenly all become Narcis. Become narcissists, right? It just means that we bring ourselves into the equation.
But isn't that the fear? I mean, I think a lot of people, a lot of women, especially, don't understand that any sort of gray area, like it's sort of one or the other, either I am kind and soft and making other people feel comfortable, all good things, or I'm a complete narcissist and jerk who doesn't care about other people's feelings. So help us understand, then dive a little bit more and give us this foundation of what exactly, and you've started talking about it a little bit, what exactly is people pleasing? How does that? How are we doing that? How does that show up in our lives? And then also, the next step would be, what's the problem with that? You just said you talked about the shrinking, and I love that, but maybe tell us a little bit more about how do we spot that? What does that actually look like when we are people pleasing, as opposed to just being kind?
Yes, that's a really good question. I would say that there's two primary ways to spot if you're people pleasing. One is your language. You're doing that overly soft and softening language. And then there's the somatic piece. And when I say somatic, I mean the body like what it feels like in your system as you're using this language, but also your body positioning. I mentioned crouching. Usually we kind of hunch our shoulders a little bit. We also will do the like, Oh, is it okay if we do the like, held head tilt, which actually we're kind of showing our throat, which is a very vulnerable I mean, it's almost like a kitten rolling over on its back. I mean, like pet me, and I'm showing you all of my organs. We do that actually in our body, we are people pleasing, yeah, so it is a position of vulnerability and making ourselves non offensive, right? We're constantly seeking to be non offensive. Now, what is the difference between that and just being kind? Oftentimes, with people pleasing, we aren't thinking about ourselves at all. That's actually the difference. When we're kind. Maybe we thought like, where am I in this? Where are they in this? What's reasonable? Did I, you know, did they give in last time? So I'm going to give in this time like we kind of look at the whole picture, whereas using can be more of a knee jerk reaction of what can I give them so that they're happy? What can I say that keeps all of us out of hot water? Most of us have no skills when it comes to confrontation, none. And so instead of gaining those really important confrontation skills, or kind of like those, like high risk conversation skills, we just keep everyone happy. We don't we don't build out our toolkit. We just use the one thing that we have, which we were probably taught from a very young age, which is, make everyone happy.
Yeah, it's it is really nuanced, though, isn't it? You know that idea of being nice and being polite versus people pleasing, it is. It's pretty nuanced. And I think that sometimes you could say the exact same thing, and it would just be kind. And other times you say the exact same thing, and like you mentioned, it's you like, rolling over and being vulnerable, not in a good way. You know, being vulnerable in that I give my entire will to whatever you want, like, it's so I think self effacing is probably the best way to describe that of you can still be kind and and not be self effacing, but self effacing is like, it really doesn't matter what you ask of me, I'll say yes, as long as it keeps you happy. And so I think that's really interesting. One of the concepts that I've worked with for a long time is this idea of women not shrinking, like women should not shrink. We should take up space. And the visual that came to me a long time ago was this concept of all of us have an appointed cookie cutter shape us in the universe. That's our space in the universe, and we can fill every bit of that cookie cutter shape, or we can fill just the toe of it. Yeah, but either way, that's our space, and people can't come into that space. So we get to decide, do we fill just the toe of it, or do we expand and fill that whole space that belongs to us? Because no one else is going to fill it. That is our space to fill on the earth. And I think that when we talk about people pleasing, that whole concept goes out the window, right? That whole concept is I will take up as little space as possible. I will exist as little as possible to allow everyone else to exist fully. And what we don't recognize is that that space that we were meant to fill is now just empty. There's a void there. It's not it's not actually giving other people more space. It's just us not filling our space. So what are your thoughts on that idea of taking up space as the flip side of people pleasing?
I adore that analogy. I'm actually, I will give you credit completely. It is so gorgeous. I love that, and I think you're absolutely right. When we take up our full space, we're not encroaching on anyone else. It's ours. And when we don't, to your point, there's just emptiness, and people don't get to know us. And this is where they say a lot about the dark side of people pleasing. Sure you keep everyone happy, sure you keep yourself out of conflict, but you are also making yourself completely unknown. Yeah, no one knows who you are, no one knows what you care about, no one knows what you stand for, no one knows what you like for dinner when you're always know whatever you want, it's okay. Yeah, you know, this is an early question I ask all of my clients when they're just coming into having more of a voice from what they like is, you know, if you were alone, no family, no partner, no one around, what would you eat for dinner? You know, and and, and then saying that out loud when everyone else is around, versus just deferring, right? It's a, it's an important, small exercise.
So one of the questions that I think comes up with this is, why are we people pleasing? Where does this come from? Why are we doing this? Why are we trained to do this?
How controversial do we want to get?
How deeply political do we want to get? For those of us in female bodies, it historically has not been safe to be in these bodies and be loud about it. I mean, we're kind of just recent to getting the vote. If we actually think about the longevity of of humanity like, you know, there's the old adage that that children are meant to be seen and not heard, but I would actually say that that was for women too. Oh yeah, we're meant to just be seen, be pleasing to the eye, and not be heard. Why do we act this way? It's because it's ingrained in us. It's I would argue that for many of us, we saw it in our mothers. We saw it in our grandmothers. We heard it from the men in our lives. It's cellular, and so pushing against it. It isn't just something that's uncomfortable. It feels life threatening. It feels like we're going to die. It
feels very unsafe. I feel something bad might happen,
yes, and for some people, in some some lives, it that's that's real and true. You know, violence happens.
And I think even short of that, you know, I think about speaking up in a in a meeting, or speaking up like some like, in a situation and where you're told, Oh, you're being silly, you're being emotional like, go sit down. You're just being emotional. Like, no, that's not dangerous, but it sure triggers our unsafe response. It's embarrassing, it's condescending, you know, it's made to put us back in our place. And I think we learn that, that if I shut up and I or I say exactly what will will make them happy, then I won't experience that vulnerability or that embarrassment or that shame or condescension. You know, I can avoid that as long as I stay small enough, as long as i i put on a good show and make everyone else feel comfortable around me,
and I get to stay this is about right? This is about belonging to
I agree with everything you just said, and it's if I'm in the room, I get to stay in the room. If I'm quiet, no, I don't get shoved away because we are, as Brene Brown says, wired for belonging, right? If people pleasing or the opposite of people pleasing, if using our voice, of saying who we are, of taking up more space begins to inhibit or kind of take away that belonging, that's terrible for us, and that's that's why I mean Self confidence is a real weak term, but it's one of the reasons why we have to have such a strong internal compass and such strong self confidence to be able to speak up and speak out in rooms where we may be told we don't belong well.
And that goes back, I think, when you first started talking about Kaesie. Of that difference between being kind and being people pleasing. I think being kind is being your truest self. It's It's understanding who you are, and when I operate from a place of kindness as hopefully a kind person, that's because I know who I am and I love other people, or I want to show love, or I want to bring joy, and that's very slightly different than when we're people pleasing, and we get rid of who we are completely like the more I cannot have an identity, the more I can disappear and just be there. It is that sense of identity that is kind of the difference there. You know, where are you coming from when you're behaving, if you're making other people happy, because that's who you are and you love doing it, then that's very different than people pleasing, even though the behavior may be exactly the same, but if you're doing it from a place of like I will vanish and disappear into nothingness, so that you can have what you want. I think sometimes this can happen even as a mom towards our children, not that we're people pleasing towards our like, we wouldn't think of it necessarily as like I'm going to give up myself to make my children happy. But actually, that is what happens a lot of times. Right as moms, we can lose our sense of identity and our sense of self in an effort to give as much space as possible for our children to grow and flourish, and yet, at the same time, that can cause a lot of havoc for women, as they start saying, like, Well, who am I but a mom? Like, I love being a mom, and I'm so happy to be a mom, but I feel like I've lost a little bit of myself. And this is not in any way to criticize being a mom. Both of us are moms and happily So, and I love being a mom, and I love being there for my kids, but for women who feel like their entire identity is consumed in being a mom. What do you think about that, being part of people pleasing, and how that happens?
I think being a mother is one of the great invitations to own ourselves, because your children, no matter how wonderful they are, especially when they're young, will never make space for you. All they want is what they want, and so they will take and take it. We all know this. They will tell their belt and thank you for being that way, my beautiful children. And that's an invitation for me to say, Where am I in this? You've taken a lot from me today. What do I need now? My children hear this every single day. They I'm sure they'll have plenty of things to talk about with their therapist in the future, because Mama, I'm like, You know what? Mama needs? Some time to herself. You've been fed. You've been bathed. Here's your book. I have to go, you know, like I take a lot of space from my children, because I can feel in my system when I'm crossing the line into burnout from giving too much. I won't say people pleasing, because I don't think I people pleasing also has a tinge of intimidation with it, we tend to people please around or with people that we are worried there's something big might come back on us if we don't. I don't feel that way with my children. I don't think many mothers feel that way necessarily with their children, but it is similar to people pleasing in that we're just giving over constantly, constantly without, checking in. And so what I would say to women who feel like they are, they're like, just moms and they've lost themselves, it's like, yes, that is how this this will go if we don't pause, if we don't find our own agency in it, no one's going to open a door for us, and suddenly there's space for us. We literally have to, like, carve it out ourselves, yeah,
yeah, yeah, that's really lovely, actually. Let's talk then about, what are these hidden costs associated with people pleasing? What's the big deal? Like, why can't we just people please? Well,
you are more than welcome to I just know personally, and as I see with my clients, that after years of people pleasing, they get a little irritable, they get a little rageful, we get a little crunchy, we get a little, you know, we get a little edgy, and then suddenly we're like, I'm not this person. Why am I acting this way? I'm a nice, kind, giving person. Why am I feeling, you know, all these yucky feelings, and it's because we've given too much. So that's generally the problem. It's that we we lose ourselves in the giving, and then it comes back and kind of bites us, and then either those negative feelings, rage, resentment, irritability, kind of goes out onto our families and into our work, or we turn it inward, beat ourselves up and kind of rage internally, which is not healthy either. So you know, if people pleasing is working for you, I invite you to keep it, but if you've noticed that you get irritable and rage. And wonder where your life went, and when you are in that kind of crouched, vulnerable position, it doesn't feel good. You feel like you're losing something. Those are signs that it's not it's not working for you. The flip side of that is that stepping away from people pleasing or at least being more mindful when we choose people pleasing, it's a big ask. Yes, it's what I'm asking us all to do. Yes, listeners, this is what we're doing. But I want you to know that it's not easy always, as we said in the beginning, it can be quite terrifying, because when we stop people pleasing, we have to deal with other people's reactions, and what that then asks us to do is really build our toolbox around being able to be with people being less than pleased with us, and remembering that if someone is less than pleased with us, we are not bad people. We are not awful. It was not our responsibility to keep them joyful, always in the first place. This goes to our children too. I'll be honest that this is where I've had to do a lot of personal work, like I cannot always make my babies happy. That does not mean I'm a bad mom. They have really hard days, and there's no pleasing I can do that is going to win these children over to happiness.
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yes, yes. If I genuinely am happy with how this went, right, then I shouldn't feel all this rage now that this engagement is over, right? Why am I so filled? And that is, that is a really, really good clue and another uncomfortable clue, because, again, women aren't supposed to be angry. We're not supposed to be rageful, we're supposed to be thrilled, especially if you're a mother, you're supposed to be endlessly happy that you're dripping in babies, and it's gorgeous and it's wonderful, and it's also utterly life consuming and exhausting. And while I think more of us are giving voice to that, we're not always given tools of how to deal with that. And when it comes to people pleasing, I invite my clients to start small and really start moment to moment, like thinking about first who do I tend to people please with the most? Is it my partner? Is it my in laws? Is it my boss? Is it my children? Who first just finding the one person that you tend to do this with most and then checking in with? What does it feel like when I am an endless yes machine? What does that feel like in my body? What shape Am I taking when I am saying, yes, is there any part of me that's screaming? No, is there any, is there any, even the little, smallest whisper of a bell going off because, you know, people pleasing is it's a muscle, and for most of us, it is very strong, and the little voice that might not like it is weaker, right? So we have to really be listening to those signs, whether they're in our mind or even in our bodies. Of like, you know, my mouth is saying, Yes, I'm all here, and my body's like, I'm exhausted.
Well, so if someone's listening and they're like, gosh, this is something that's hard for me. I I say yes to everything, and I'm starting to feel resentful, or I do it even though I don't want to do it, and I'm constantly just self sacrificing and I don't feel good about it. What do we do next? How do we start to approach this, and how do we start to make changes in that way that we're responding
from the perspective of a parent, there are so many things that we just have to do that we don't want to do. So I just want to say that first, around people pleasing, don't try and take away the thing that you have to do as a parent. That doesn't mean
that we're going to walk around doing only the things that we want to do all the time. Exactly. It's
actually, this is actually this is actually one of the reasons why we have to stop people pleasing as much, because there is so much that we actually have to do that we don't want to do that then to then people please on top of that, we get in burnt out immediately. Yeah, yeah. And so where I recommend my client starting is with a person that they tend to people please with regularly, who is also actually a safe person, a safe person, because there are also people, people that we people please with that are not safe people, right? We people please with them, because we know that if we don't, there is definitely going to be an explosion, right? And so let's not start with changing with them just yet that's like, you know, that's graduate school, but for now, a person who is safe for you, but who you still people please with because you just don't like rocking the boat. And one of the things I really encourage my clients to do is tell this person that you're changing. Tell this person that you've been thinking about what you do that isn't actually working for you, and probably your relationship with this person either. And so giving everyone a heads up that things are going to change, and not from that like things are going to change, because not you don't want to have this conversation when you hit your limit, but more from a thoughtful place of I actually think I want to try this differently. I'm I'm defaulting to behaviors that I don't want to default to anymore. Yeah, and so I want it to look like this, you know, again, easy example. You know, from now on, when you ask me, like, what's for dinner? I'm not going to just say back to you, I don't know, what do you want? Like, I'm actually going to ask myself what I want and tell you, and then we'll figure it out from there. You know, being a lot of my clients are all of my clients actually are, like, fixers and doers and helpers. They're the people that everyone at the school asks them to volunteer, asks them to spearhead the next initiative, and they often say yes, and then they really regret it, yeah. And so that's another safe place I think, to start is, is there anyone who tends to call you and ask you to volunteer? And can you say, You know what, my plate is full? Thank you for thinking of me. My plate is full.
You know, taking that space just to say, what do I actually want? I think a lot of us who are used to people pleasing will say yes before you even know, are you people pleasing or are you not? Like, who knows what? There's no time there. It's just a reflex of, like, can you do this? Sure. I'll do that, because it's the quote, unquote right thing to do, right? And that's fine if you feel like that's the right thing to do. I don't think that's as much the question. But did you pause to say, how do I feel about this, like, is this something that I would enjoy doing? Is this something that's best for me? Is this something that's best for my family right now, just because someone asks something of us does not always mean that it's best for us or our family or the people who are affected by it, and so even if we know, like, maybe that baby step is saying, I might still say yes, but let me just pause and create space and say, let me check my schedule and get back to you. Like, can I just create a little bit of space there? And then actually think about it and think like, do I want to do that? Is that something that is in alignment with where I'm at right now, with my goals and my family and my life and my time scheduling? I think that could that that's a really lovely baby step there, Mallory.
That's exactly what I was going to say. Oh, sorry. Oh, sorry. No, thank you. You can always ask for time, and if you can't, that's a sign that you just say no, yeah, if someone is like, actually, if you say to someone, thank you for thinking of me for this, I need to think about it. Can I get back to you in 48 hours? And like, no, I need to know now. Well, then the answer is no, yeah, yeah, if you have to have your answer now, then the answer is no. But if you can wait, let me see if this works for my life. You know, we always ask for time, and if we aren't given time, then the answer. You have your answer right there, and it is, it is a brief thing also to not be pressured. You know how often pressured into things, or into things, or shamed into things, or we tell ourselves a story of like, even though I don't want to do this, I will, because in the long run, it'll somehow pay off. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, you know, really looking at our life as it is in its current iteration, that's really important. As I get older, for better or worse, I just feel like, Oh, my God, life is really short, so I really need to think like, what matters most to me right now in this iteration of my life, my children's lives, my partner's life, you know, and what our goals are as a family. I mean, I get invited to things all the time at night, that is the worst time of day for me. It is, it is the worst time of day, because my children want me to be in bed with them, cuddling every night. So I say no to most things that happen after 5pm because in this iteration of my life, it doesn't for my family. That's like a firm boundary that I keep. Do I sometimes miss out on work opportunities or friendship opportunities. Yes, yes, I do.
So what do you say to people who say, Well, I don't want to hurt their feelings. I don't want them to feel bad. Like, why are you saying yes to that? I don't want them to feel bad.
Why do you think they can't handle feeling bad?
We do this all the time. We attempt to protect people from their own feelings. We can't live that way. First of all, we have no control over how people feel right. Second of all, attempting to protect people from negative feelings makes it's almost like we're taking on some sort of universal power that we don't have. We don't have. And so it's also very important, I think, to give people opportunity to learn how to be uncomfortable and to learn how to work with discomfort. You know if a boundary that I set and now, you know we can get into boundaries now, but you know, if a boundary that I set makes someone uncomfortable, they can, they can tell me that, and we can work with it, or they can just be uncomfortable. Figure out why they feel uncomfortable, and figure it, you know, and unravel it for themselves. You know, boundaries are set with me all the time. You know, my mother, my mother recently set a boundary with me, and I was like, what? But thankfully, I've done enough work where I'm like, okay, Jamie, why did that sting? Oh, because you actually think your mother should always say yes to you. Okay, well, the truth is that she's getting older. She can't say yes to you all the time. You're gonna have to be okay with that, right? That was her setting a very clear and loving boundary with me. Was an invitation for me to work out my own feelings about it. I didn't throw those feelings back on her.
I think that's so important. One of the lessons that I had to learn in marriage was you may not always be on exactly the same page with your partner, right? You may have different opinions. And I think if you're outside marriage, that's like so obvious. Well, of course, we're going to. Have different opinions. We're different humans. Like, we're never gonna agree on everything, but somehow, then you get married and you're like, but we will now, right? We're married, we'll agree on everything. And I specifically remember learning that phrase from from a life coach, actually, it's okay if he doesn't have the same opinion as me. And I remember being younger and having that experience of like, no is not okay. It's not okay if he if he disagrees with me, this is not okay. And I think that, like you were saying when we talk about this idea of like, I don't want him to disagree. I don't want him to or anyone to feel uncomfortable. I don't want to hurt their feelings. I don't want them to feel bad. All of those things are completely not our job. It's not our responsibility to have an action and assume the reaction right? That's some odd, odd way of playing God, or some odd way of trying to control a relationship. And really, if you ask the person on the other side of the relationship if it's any form of healthy relationship, most of us, I think, would prefer to receive an authentic answer from someone instead of have someone lie to us or change their answer just to try to manipulate me into having a certain emotion. Right now, Those are strong words, but that's kind of what we're doing. When we say, I don't want them to feel bad. Well, maybe they just legitimately want to know what you think. Yeah, did you think of that like? Maybe they just wanted to get to know you and and how you felt in the situation. Instead, we're we're morphing ourselves and trying to conform to what we think might possibly maybe be the outcome. And, I mean, there are people who are perfectly happy to be manipulated that way, right? There are people who are perfectly happy just to have other people please them. But I think, I hope, most of the people in our relationships really just want us to be sincere and to be honest. Like, do you want to do this? No, I don't Okay. Well, I don't love that, but Thanks for, thanks for being honest with me. But anyway, going back to that idea of like it's okay if they feel, whatever it is they feel, it's okay if they don't like that, I had that emotion, if that's a if that emotion is a measured out emotion, and it's, it's really what represents me, and they're unhappy with that. That's a tricky thing for a lot of us to accept, but, but I would practice that phrase of, it's okay if they have a different feeling than I do. It's okay if they have a different opinion.
Now I'm really curious, going back, you know, to the beginning of your marriage, like, what? What was your big fear? Like, what was so terrifying about being on a different page as your husband?
Yeah, it's such a good question. And that is, it was one of the next questions that I had for you, is, why we bring like, why are we so afraid of people not being happy with us and and for me, I don't, I don't even think it was a conscious like, I don't know what I was so afraid of, other than we are supposed to be, you know, we should be completely unified, I think in my brain. Now, if you had asked me that, like, do you think you and your husband will agree on everything? I would have been like, no, that's ridiculous. I'm never going to agree on everything with anyone. But I think a lot of us have this subconscious fear of, like you said, not being accepted, not being liked, not being loved. And I do think that on a lot of levels, we do associate that idea of if someone doesn't agree with us, or if we say something and they don't like it, then, Are we worthy of love? Are we worthy of connection? Do we belong? You know, those are big, powerful things that go back to, you know, I don't know when we were two or something, and I think it's just hard, it's hard to be okay with that, and it's hard to feel safe with that, but it's sort of at some point we have to recognize it's either vanishing of ourself and our identity or being okay with being in a member of the human race where people disagree, you know, and and truly, I do think there is some risk involved. There are people and relationships that we have that if we take up space and we're sincere and we express something from our heart and they don't like it, they will leave. There are some relationships like that that it will break the relationship. Yes, and that's just a I'd at least rather make that decision consciously, knowing, okay I am going to people please here so that I can save this relationship. I just want to make sure that I'm doing that consciously yes or that I'm saying this is not okay with me. I can't just be what you want me to be and not be myself, just so you'll stick around. Around, I need to find another connection. But, man, easier said than done, right?
Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, we're talking about two different types of relationships here, right? We're talking about Sure, right? The type of relationship that can actually is ready for you to stop people pleasing. Is ready for you to show up as your authentic self, a relationship where they want to know who you are and actually been looking for you, but you've been hiding, right? And then there's the other type of relationship that we might be in where they're perfectly fine with you, just morphing and shape shifting and doing whatever you need to do to make sure that they stay happy. Those relationships absolutely exist. We're probably related to a lot of these people, exactly, right? And so, but I love what you just said, at least we're giving ourselves choice. There are absolutely still moments in my life, even certain relationships in my family that I sell people, please, I absolutely but I know I'm doing it now, sure. And what's interesting is that by knowing it feels so much more empowering before doing this dance that I would do with certain family members, and then leave feeling completely slimed and feeling like I just been sucked of all my energy and being confused as to why I felt this way. It's like, oh, wait, I couldn't be my authentic self.
You know, that's where resentment comes up a lot, right? Is if you're not, if you're not choosing and you don't like it, then you will resent that person. You know, you'll come away feeling slimed, as you said, you know, being around a family member and just getting sucked in and being like, Oh, why do I do that every time? Like they asked me to do it and I didn't want to do it, but I did it anyway. Why do I do that every time? That's a good indicator that you're not maybe handling it the best way. And that can be hard to figure out what the best way is, but sometimes it is just a matter of having enough space to say, I am choosing this. I don't love it, but I'm choosing it. You know, there's a life coach named Jody Moore who's one of the things that she talks about is that just feeling empowered is sometimes just recognizing that we actually do have a choice. So as a mom, I could literally walk out on my family. Now I'm not going to, but even that alone is recognizing like because I'm choosing not to. You know, I could, I could not show up to my clinic ever again. I could just leave it all, leave it all hanging, leave all my patients hanging. I would never do that. But then, when I choose to come to work, it's me recognizing I'm choosing to be here. I may not like everything about it, I may not love everything about, you know, a relationship that I'm in, but I am consciously choosing to stay in it. So I love that, because it helps us recognize that what we're saying is not it should be unicorns and rainbows all the time, like we should just be happy and we should do these things. We can still choose to do the thing that keeps the peace. We can do that. And it's it's not always the wrong answer, but at least doing it, knowing that you are choosing to do it, you are making that choice to self sacrifice or to do something you don't want to do, and sometimes making the choice not to do those things, even operating from that place of empowerment, is very different than operating From a place of feeling manipulated or feeling coerced or forced. Those are not good emotions, and they will rarely, if ever, lead to anywhere good. When you're a women's health expert like I am, you get to talk about a lot of taboo topics for women, and that includes periods and how inconvenient they can be, among other things, I grew up in the era of only tampons and pads, and I am so glad that we now have better options. I switched years ago to using period underwear and a menstrual cup combined, and I will never go back. I've tried several brands, but the brand I'm really loving is salt that's s with two A's, LT, their cup discs and period underwear are not only comfortable and reliable, they also take extra steps to make sure that when you're using products in intimate places, that they're not going to release toxins like PFAs or other chemicals that we really don't want to be absorbing into our bodies. Plus, they're more sustainable and more cost effective compared to traditional products, which is a win in my book, we love that salts products are made with medical grade silicone, free of toxins, and designed to actually fit real bodies and lifestyles. Whether you're brand new to reusable period care or looking to upgrade, we highly recommend checking them out and please, if you have a teenager who's starting to have periods, please get them some period underwear. All of us who are older know what it was like to walk around with a sweatshirt tied around your waist. Let's get rid of that. Just get them some period underwear. Click the link in our show notes to shop salt and explore all of their options, and you'll see why so many of our patients are making the switch. Now back to the episode. Whenever we
don't have a voice, or whenever we have. Either squashed our voice ourselves or it's been squashed by another person. There's going to be a reaction to that, right? There's either going to be kind of a compounding of shrinking or a volcano eruption, right? And so I, I completely agree that the minute we find choice, we have found empowerment, even if that choice is doing the thing that we just right, said that we don't love but choice is everything, and remembering that we have choice and that we have agency in every single one of our relationships
is very, very important.
Well, now you said, when we were talking earlier, you brought up this acronym of rain, R a, I n, when talking about fear, we were talking about this idea of, what are we so afraid of? Like, why do we want so badly for someone to be happy with us, to approve of us, and you have this acronym, will you share that with
us? Yes, it is not mine. It is from a meditation teacher and psychologist named Tara Brock, who has been doing incredible work for decades. She wrote a book called True refuge that I love, and she talks about rain as a process to work with uncomfortable emotions like fear, anxiety, worry, all of it, and so rain is first we recognize what's happening inside of us. Okay, I'm feeling top level anxiety underneath and feeling a lot of fear about tell this person No, right? And then a we allow, we allow whatever feelings that we have to exist. They're not wrong, they're not bad, they're allowed to exist. I is we investigate what's happening here. Why am I afraid? What in my history, what in my upbringing, what in this moment is causing me to be terrified, to say no, and then n is we nurture and nurture, really, is just self compassion, reminding ourselves I'm terrified this, this is a moment of suffering. I'm allowed to be scared. And what else? What else is there? Because one of another thing that that Tara Brock talks a lot about is that our thoughts, while very real in the moment often aren't true. I love, I love that distinction that she makes that this is real, because I'm feeling all the feelings I'm definitely sweating, you know, like it's real, but it's not true necessarily the story that I'm telling myself that if I say no, then this is going to be the end of the relationship, or if I say no, they're going to hate me that may not be true, and really kind of sussing out the fact that we live our lives based off of these kind of thought movies that could be complete fiction. I
love that, and I love that. It just gives us a construct to slow down and think it through. I think that nurturing of just saying I feel this way can be so powerful. It it for me, when I have an exercise like that, it really starts to diffuse that fear and that anxiety and that anxiousness, even just saying it right in therapy, they say, name it, to tame it, yeah, even just acknowledging the emotion like I am afraid that if I say no, kind of like what you asked me right in early marriage, what was I so afraid of? That's not something that I've really given a lot of thought to. But when we name it and we say, I think I was afraid of losing a connection, of losing my village, right? Of losing my people, well that's that's something that, like, when you put a name to it, like the conscious side of my brain is like, Well, yeah, that that would be alarming, you know. And then it sort of diffuses because it's like, well, yeah, that would be scary. That's a reasonable fear to have, yes, and that diffuses. So then you can go on with your conscious brain and say, so what do we do? What do we do next? But if you stay in that unknown fear, I call it lava lamp brain, the brain just like morphs and moves in waves and is constantly changing, and we can't get a handle on it, but if we can nurture it and name it and just allow it to be there inside of us, instead of instantly trying to change it and be like, don't feel that way. Don't say that to yourself. Like, why not say it to yourself? Like, say it and and hear it and let it sit and then decide what to do with it. Can be really powerful well. And I
think that what you're saying here is so true. What? What does dismissing or denying do? Yeah, in our bodies, nothing good. Nothing good. And if I encourage everyone who tends to diminish how you feel, diminish how you know, kind of what you say, or just ignore it, like, notice the impact on your system. Notice the impact on your relationships, right? Does it give you more resilience when you're dealing with your children, or less? Yeah? Like really noticing the impacts of these things, because while it can feel very. Kind of fluffy and unimportant, to just allow ourselves to feel what we feel, acknowledge it and let it be okay. That mission softens everything, yeah, which then allows us to actually be the kind people that we want to be.
Yeah, yeah. I love that. One of the things that you mentioned again when we were talking before this was why some people don't think people pleasing is a problem. You mentioned. It allows them to look nice, right? Like we like to look nice. It keeps us in good standing. It doesn't challenge the status quo. Means we get to avoid conflict. We'll wrap up, because this will kind of come full circle with what we were talking about at the beginning. What is the conflict there with this idea of being nice? What's the problem there? We talked a little bit about being nice isn't necessarily the problem. You know, being nice is fine. So what is really the goal here, as we talk about people pleasing people who are, you know, women who are listening, who are like, gosh, this is me. I know some things here, but what ultimately is should be our goal when it comes to interacting with people, if we are, if we are trying to be recovered people pleasers.
Instead of being nice, I would invite us all to be kind and real. So when someone asks me how I'm doing, I do not say I'm fine or I'm great. If I'm not great, what I generally will say is what is true. So if what is true is like, it's been a day, you know, I'll kind of, I'll say that. I'll give it a little like tinge of humor, and then I will, I will ask them how they are. Now that's the kindness piece. Like answering honestly does not mean that someone has opened a door for us and now we're dumping on them, right, right? Being vulnerable or real does not mean, you know, they now become our therapist. It just means, can we be honest? Instead of just nice and kind and honest is very, very important, right? That's why you can say what's true. But then, you know, obviously remembering the other person of like and how was your day, if we're being honest. And I love that I often with with new people that I meet, I'll say something like, you know, how are you if you were being honest, yeah,
like, throw in that reminder.
It's like, it's a little curveball that actually people love, because the small talk that we all like, the niceties, really, they don't get us anywhere. They don't move any conversation forward. They don't deepen our relationships, which is what we're all starving for, right? Is like a deepened relationship. So when we can just, like, how are you really, really, and then answer that honestly, I think it does a lot. I think if we can just, I've really tried to even remove the word nice. I try not to describe anyone as nice, and usually, if I do, that's a signal that I'm like, yeah, they're nice,
and we're never gonna see that person
again, yeah?
But I think that idea of being real, I love how you say that, like being kind or nice, fine and being real. And I do think it's really easy for a lot of us to feel like there, there are just two ends of the spectrum. There's either being making everyone happy or being a total jerk. And how about we find the middle ground where we are real? And that might mean, you know, if, if someone says, Where do you want to go to dinner, that we say, you know, I'd really prefer to go somewhere like this, but I can be flexible, right? So we're not just saying constantly, like, oh, I don't care. I have zero opinion, because I will take up no space in the world, and I will not interfere with anyone's thought process or anyone's schedule, right? Like I will be as as non intrusive as possible. We can, we can go one step further in a good way. We can go away from that but not be totally domineering and controlling. And I think we need to learn how to live in that middle ground of being true to who we are and actually thinking like, how do I feel about this? But then you can still soften it however you want, and say, but you know what I'm I'm really not that picky right now, so I could go along with whatever. But we still need to practice having an opinion about things,
naming your opinion, setting up injury, just stating what what you want, doesn't mean that you're opening the door to now become a demanding three year old, right? That's not what this is, and we don't we're not looking to regress. We don't want to do that, but there is a place to practice and play with naming our needs and our desires and our wants, whether someone. Has asked our opinion or not. You know, like I would say, if the first level is when someone asks you, what what you want to eat, being honest, I'd say the second level is if you are invited out to dinner and no one has yet to name the restaurant, you name the one you want. Hey, what about Mexican tonight? And then seeing what people say versus saying nothing and hoping that someone else will just choose, right? I do this a lot because I actually really care about where I eat. I am often the one who's like, steering the ship, but I'm also open. If someone's like, you know, I'm like, I would much prefer sushi. It's like, okay, cool. Thank you for your opinion. But yeah, I taking that second step of being the one who doesn't just wait to be asked, but actually takes the lead, is an exciting possibility for a lot of people.
Yeah, especially if you've ever been part of a girlfriend's group that's trying to choose a place to go for dinner, and everyone's like, I don't care what? Oh, I don't care. No, Anything's fine with me. You're like, oh my gosh, someone's got to make a decision.
Everyone invite me into your friend group. I will know exactly.
Well. Thank you for being here, Jamie, this has been such a good conversation. I think it's an important conversation. You know? I think we need to at least recognize, are we being people pleasers and and do we want to be? And can we find a way out? And can we at least be conscious of it? So thank you for sharing your wisdom and your expertise and your coaching with us. Will you tell people where they can find you?
Yes, you can find me on my website, which is Jamie greenwood.co and you can also find me on Instagram, at Jamie Greenwood coaching,
awesome. Well, thank you for being here. It's been a really fun conversation, my pleasure. Thank you so much for tuning in to today's episode. A huge thank you to our guests for sharing their insights and time with us. We are grateful for the incredible support from our sponsors and to all of you listening. We couldn't do this without you. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing on your favorite platform. You can find us on our website, uplift for her, calm, YouTube, Apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen. And if you found value here today, please share this episode with someone who would benefit from it. Leave us a comment or give us a review. It really helps us reach more listeners like you. Thank you for being part of our community. Stay tuned for our next episode. Lastly, this information is for educational purposes only, and not intended to be medical advice. So.
