If you go off to like, an island alone for a month, like, like, you could do this, but, you know, and and everything was better then you probably don't have ADHD. But if you go off to an island for a month and you're still doing these things, on some level, that is probably ADHD, welcome back to uplift for her.
Today's episode is one I know many of you are going to connect with. We are talking about ADHD in women, and I'm super excited to talk about this because we're talking to a guest, Dr Jennifer Dahl. She is a PhD and neurodivergent specialist and founder of ADHD holistically. She is sharing with us her own lived experience with ADHD after getting a diagnosis in her 50s, years after being told she couldn't possibly have it and actually living with it her whole life, and now, she helps women reframe their ADHD stories and discover what really works for them. And I love this conversation because it's helpful to hear and relate to someone with ADHD. If you yourself are wondering if you have ADHD, but it's also helpful if you don't feel like that applies to you. Just to hear what's going on in the brains of women who are struggling with this. There's so much compassion here and so many good things to learn about. We're also talking about, how do you know if it could be ADHD for you or just the chaos of your life, and why so many women are misdiagnosed or completely missed until midlife? She also shares with us some simple, practical strategies, which is really her specialty, of how we can actually make our daily lives easier and coping with ADHD. So whether you've been diagnosed, you're wondering if ADHD might be part of your story, or you just want to better understand the women in your life. This episode is full of insights and encouragement. So let's get into it.
What's going on? What are all the things that it could be? Because it could be multiple, one of the things I talk about is ADHD plus one health. They add together, they mix together this big, messy Venn diagram,
Dr Dahl or Jen, thank you so much for coming. I am so excited to dig into this. We are talking today to our wonderful listeners about ADHD, which is something you know so much about. So thank you for sharing your time and your expertise to come teach us.
Thank you for having me come here. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you.
Well, good. I first want to hear just your lived experience, just your own experience with ADHD. You had kind of, I was going to say, an atypical journey, but it may not be that atypical at all, but you were not diagnosed with ADHD until you were in your 50s, right? Yeah, a few years ago, in my 50s, I had gone through life, you know, like many women, we had no idea what was going on. We did all the right things. We wore all the masks. I was in education, actually, I taught a lot of special education. I taught students with ADHD and learning disabilities. And, you know, I've taken all the classes, done all the degrees. Slowly, I think as we learned more and I learned more, I started getting a little bit suspicious, but still I didn't know. And when I would ask people, their response was like, No, you can't possibly because, you know, we still think of ADHD as this eight year old boy, that sort of thing. But over time, I learned more, I saw more. I got more girls in my classes. I interacted more with people who were starting to wonder if they had ADHD, and I think it all just snowballed and caught up to us. And I finally really believed that this was the case, that some other things had been mis looked at. And I finally had the the determination to go into a doctor and say, Look, I really think this is what's going on, and I'd really like to talk about it that was however, you know, right at the beginning of, say, the pandemic, when getting medical help, you know, getting anything was really hard, so it's been a little bit of a struggle. But I think that I had just gotten to this point where I really believed and understood that for me, this was my truth, and this is what was going on. And I think it happened at a time when more people were more interested in hearing it also tell us about how you were feeling, what, what was it you were experiencing that you started wondering, gosh, I don't know if is this. ADHD, you know, a lot of the disorganization and the scattered thoughts that had actually been there all along, some of the emotional dysregulation, some of the small things they talk about, like proprioception, issues, walking into things, having trouble with stairs, having a hard time with space and social cues and all of that. You know, I was really good at structured things, so I knew how to do school. I went to school, I taught. I continued to go to school. I knew how to do all of those things, but it was just outside and things that weren't of interest to me, that I really started to to look at. And the more I looked at it, and the more I looked at women and what we were learning, it seemed.
Like, for so many girls and so many women, it is kind of attributed to, like, a personality issue. You know, you're you're you're lazy, or you're being difficult or you're being defiant, and not the fact that your your brain and your way of being is different. Looking back through your life, yeah, is there a time that you can see like this? Is when I really noticed this, or it goes back as far as you can remember, to school, of having some of these same patterns, I think they were always there. I think that I hid them, you know. And like other people have talked about a lot of times the girls, they may have the distractibility, they may have these things, but they're not outwardly getting in trouble. They're not, you know, causing the attention for the most part, that some of the boys or some of the other students are having. So you just slip on by. But I think that I can look back and and see things that were always there, and we just didn't know. We had no idea. We think about ADHD as, as you're saying, like the hyperactive boy who can't sit still, and he's distracting and he's interrupting class. And I think too, we think maybe it's going to hold people back. But especially for women, there can be plenty of high, well, I won't say especially for women. Talking about women, there can be really high achieving women with ADHD, and you're the perfect example of that, having your your PhD. What is the disconnect there? Why do we kind of think that, like, oh, well, you couldn't have ADHD, because you do so well in school, and you've you've come so far, and you've accomplished so much, I think because we know how to mask and we know how to play the game, and that's a structure that we like. And a lot of times in advanced education, things like that, or things that you're really successful and you're really interested in it, so you have that hyper focus. A lot of things are interest based. So I want to know about this. I'm interested in this. I I'm able to really focus in and do it, whereas other things that I'm not as interested in, I have a harder time with. But I think that because we didn't know that these women had ADHD, we weren't seeing it. So is there sort of a confirmation bias. I guess you know, you see the boys who have it, and this reinforces what you think. But if you don't know, I have it because I don't know, or I haven't told you, or I continue to hide it, it doesn't do anything to
to break those ideas that you have. Does that make sense? Yeah, so if someone is listening, I want to give a little bit more of a clear picture. You kind of mentioned your experience of some of the things that you really resonated with, but for someone who's listening, who's like, could I have ADHD, will you describe a little bit more about how that might show up for a younger girl, and then maybe how it might show up as we age, even just in our adulthood, 20s, 30s, 40s, sure. So it can be in class, in school, maybe having a hard time to sit and focus for a long time in a classroom, needing more original and exciting things to do, stimulation, that sort of thing. You may be making impulsive decisions, but they're not as out there and dangerous, perhaps, as some other people, but you may make decisions that you haven't really thought through, or plans decisions, and so for the younger person, you may also find that you have a hard time keeping track of things. You know, the complaints may be about your room, which I know who's a common complaint. But you know, with ADHD, a lot of times it's out of sight, out of mind. So you might put things away and completely forget where they are, where you have them. And so to keep from doing that, you may have a lot of things out, right? So to remember where all my papers and my things are, they're all out, and it looks really messy to somebody else, but if it's gone, I have forgotten about it, which could explain why you forget to do things you've been asked to do, if it's not like up front and right in front of you. And people sometimes take that in bad ways. As you get older, you know you may find that when you go to college, if you go to college or you go out on your own, some of those structures you did have, whether they were really positive or not, are gone when you're living on your own, or when you're living in a dorm or something like that. And so it can be harder to keep track of things that you're doing. And then I would just say, as you get older, you may notice that there's things that have since they've been there for a long time. You know, a lot of the people I talk to when they wonder if they have ADHD, it's because they've heard something or they've read something, and I always want to know, what was that specific thing that they were talking about that really like sunk in and grabbed your attention, because we should start looking at that. You know, is it? Is it the talk about how you're always early or you're always late? Is it the talk about how you make these grand plans and you can't follow through? Is it that, you know, you have a hard time sitting there and focusing for a long time? You know, what are the things that are coming up that you're noticing, and you're noticing they're probably causing a little bit of problem in your life? And starting there, I have.
Two more questions along those same lines, but I want to start with the positive one. First is, what are the ways that having ADHD, you think can really be a beautiful thing for for we'll say women, especially. So I think having anything, if you're accepting it and acknowledging it and loving yourself for it, then that's a good thing. You know, if we're not putting yourself down and shaming yourself or listening to those stories, people with ADHD tend to have a good imagination a lot of ideas. You know, this can be seen as being scattered and all over the place, but if you really look at it, you could come up with, you could brainstorm really well. You can come up with all kinds of great ideas. You can go beyond the usual, you know, then the the situation is, is pulling you back down, finding what's realistic and finding what you're really going to do. But I think that creativity and that openness, that that open way of thinking is really can be a strength. What about the ways that it can affect our kind of inner thinking. You know, you mentioned guilt and shame. What are the ways that a lot of women, maybe who don't recognize it as ADHD, or maybe they do, but that it's kind of weighing them down, right? So I think that that happens a lot. We want to be perfect. We want to do all these things. We don't want to ask for help. We may look at other people and and believe, rightly or wrongly, that they have it all together, that they're organizing it all, that they're doing it now we don't actually really know, but so that can keep us from wanting to say something, to ask for help, to really do the things we we need to do, or we want to do. So I think it's easy, especially if you have a history of it, of telling yourself stories or listening to the stories, that it's not that you have ADHD and so you have a different feeling of time. You have a different way of looking at time. It's that you're always late or you're always this. And I think neurotypical people, even people maybe with ADHD, who don't know or who don't understand may do some blaming. You know, they're frustrated. It can be hard to live with us sometimes,
but and so I think that that that message gets sent to us a lot.
What are the tips that you have for people who are trying to find a diagnosis about this. And will you also comment on, how does someone get to their 50s or their 40s, right? This is something that they've been dealing with for so long. How do we get to that point and still not have a diagnosis? And then how do we get a diagnosis? So I think part of the way we get to 40 or 50 with no diagnosis is that so little of the information is out there and widespread out there, even doctors, teachers, therapists, who are educated and very well trained in their areas, they get very little training on ADHD, and most of what they Get is older and outdated. You know, research takes time. You have to based on children, based on children, based on men, and it takes time you don't just do an experiment, and the next day you have these wonderful results that everybody knows about. So I think a lot of it is through our time people didn't know. It's also tended to be miscategorized as depression or anxiety, not that they can't coexist, but I know for myself that was part of it also was being told, you know, based on these certain things, oh, it's depression. And then the snap answer to that was medication. And that's the way that things worked, and still work with depending on your doctors. So I think a lot of it is simply when we have been living. It's not like all this information was there and everybody ignored it.
It wasn't there and it wasn't widely known. So we are, unfortunately, the guinea pigs, the ones who are up and learning what's going on. I think that's the first part of your question, and now I'm going to need you to follow up and ask me the second part. Yes, of course. I'm going to follow up on that first though, I just think there's, I have so much compassion for women who are struggling with this, because it's exactly what you're saying that women, mostly as they're going through this, especially as young people, they're not like, Hmm, my brain seems to be functioning a little differently than the average. Like, maybe I have ADHD, maybe I should look for some different skills. Like, no one's thinking that way, right? I think most times these these girls, and as they grow into women, are thinking, what's wrong with me? Like, why can't I get it together? Why can't I just do things the way that I'm supposed to be doing it, or I, quote, unquote, should be doing it, or whatever. And it just can create that sort of shame and guilt cycle of like, why can't I just fix this? And then you try to go get help and say, I don't think something's I think something's not quite where I want it to be. And then you're told, well.
You have depression, or you have, yeah, anxiety, or you have any other number of things, and what you should really do is take this medication, which you may be open to do if you're like, gosh, if that can make me feel better, I'll do that. And then you take that and don't feel any better. And it can be just this kind of, I don't want to say hopeless, but this really frustrating, non progressive, like you're not getting anywhere with it, right? So I just have so much compassion, yeah? And I think, if you you know, what's making me think is, like, if you're looking at it, we're finding more girls around puberty. We were learning so much more about hormones, both at puberty and the menopause, how that works. But if you look at the young girls who are starting to go through puberty, you know, they do not want to be seen different either. They're getting older and they're learning more about themselves, and maybe they're learning more things about it, and the hormones of puberty might be making things worse for many of them. Probably the last thing they want to do is stand out, right and have it go up to somebody and say, I think I'm different. I think something's wrong with me. And if they've been hiding and they've been magically keeping it all together, you know, their parents then see any changes sometimes, or their teachers as defiance or behavior, or you're you're being a teenager. So that all gets set up. And so at what point do you feel that confidence and that knowledge to break out of it and ask for help, you know, I don't know, and especially if you don't know a lot, and you know, it's kind of a cycle that I think is really hard, and we're learning so much more also, so maybe we have more hope for the the younger generations.
I'm often asked exactly what items I use and recommend. So I have a little gift for you. I have gathered my go tos in one spot on our Amazon storefront. If you need deeper sleep, you'll find the light blocking sleep mask that lives on my nightstand and that I use every night. If you're working on your bone density or your posture, check out the weighted vest I recommend for walks and workouts. We've also added the magnesium body lotion I reach for to calm the nervous system, my favorite laundry soap and cleaning products, and even the cast iron skillet that's currently sitting on my stove top. All of these and more are organized by category, so you can browse trusted products without the overwhelm of trying to figure out what's the best thing to buy. You can head to amazon.com, backslash shop, backslash uplift for her, or tap the link in the show notes, or from our website to explore the items I personally use and love. I hope this makes your life just a little bit easier. Now, back to the show. I'm glad you bring up hormones, because I do think puberty is just kind of a mess of hormones in general, like that can go any which way, but especially in perimenopause and menopause, where some of the hormonal shifts can make people feel scattered, or can make their brains feel less clear thinking. And then you add the just the stuff that happens in perimenopause and life feels more overwhelming, and suddenly you take this girl or woman who was able to cope like she was kind of keeping it together, you know, maybe not perfectly, but, but could get by, and suddenly it all starts to fall apart. And then the question is, how much of it is hormonal, versus is it ADHD that's finally sort of maxed out its boundaries, like can't, can't live that way anymore, and how much of it is other things going on, you know, if you think about it, if you're hitting 40 and 50, you know you may be, maybe you've been in a job, in a relationship, that have been holding together fine. You know, you've got your structures. You've got things that work out better or worse, all of a sudden, like your kids are getting older, and that whole thing is changing, right? And our whole world is constantly changing. So I see so many of those things. And I think you can't it's not like, Do you have a strep throat, or do you not have a strep throat, or are you positive for covid or not? There's, there's so many things. So I think it's really looking at what's going on at that moment. If it's just a lot of things, not just but if it's things going on in life, that's about of it. You can change more of those. I think I heard one time, like, if, if you go off to like, an island alone for a month, like, like, you could do this, but, you know, and, and everything was better than you probably don't have ADHD, but if you go off to an island for a month and you're still doing these things on some level, that is probably ADHD, yeah, yeah, you know, if that makes any sense, and, and so looking at what's going on, what are all the things that it could be? Because it could be multiple, one of the things I talk about is ADHD plus one, how they add together, they mix together this big, messy Venn diagram. And so, back to where I was, looking at what are the biggest issues right now, what's really impacting your life? And can we pull from one or the other? You know, does it seem primarily ADHD, and if we try some ADHD tricks, does that help? You know, is it taking things off your plate? Is it, you know, therapy? What is it and not just wanting one specific answer, just.
Take this pill, yeah, but realizing that we're complicated and our lives are complicated, especially as we get older and the world continues to change, it's complicated, yeah, so let's kind of not pick and choose, but like, let's be open to different things to try. I think that matches how we do it at my clinic at uplift. One of the things in perimenopause and menopause, that we like to do is to get those hormones taken care of first. Because the fact is, you can't tell sometimes how much of it is hormonal versus how much of it is ADHD, versus how much of it is that your life circumstances are not serving you well, like there's just too much going on, etc. And if we can get the hormones under control, then we can say, Okay, you got 30% better? Great. There's something else going on if you get 100% better than we say, probably wasn't ADHD. It was probably hormonal. So kind of layering on that approach, so that then you can get to the basics. And the fact is, a lot of things that that help a person with ADHD are going to help a person without ADHD, but there's also some tools that can really focus in on ADHD, right, right? So basic things, basic ways of taking care of yourself and knowing yourself and advocating for your needs, whether it's it's a menopause or ADHD, you know they're going to help a little bit, but it's how much do they help? And then what are you left with after that, like if, if you're cleaning something and you got most of the top dirt off, okay, so what are we left with? And then, if you're looking at the ADHD, so what are the big areas of struggle? Because not everybody's ADHD works in the same way. Are you really struggling with organization, with time management, with emotional regulation, and looking at little tricks and trying, just being willing to try really little experiments, I like to call them, and seeing what works and what doesn't work so well. What are things that women should know who are sitting here listening and thinking, I think this might be me. How do I actually get to a diagnosis? So I would start off by, what's making you think this, what are the areas that you're saying? I think because of this, I might have ADHD and then going and doing maybe a little research on your own, you know, just a little bit of working. You know, those ADHD quizzes can be helpful in a way. If you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Then, you know, it's gonna depend on your your health care, who you have access to, who you know, trying to get some outside perspective and outside help. It can be helpful if you're trying to figure things out, if there's somebody from your past life, it's a friend you've known for a long time, a relative, somebody like that, who you trust to have a clean view, to bring it up to them, like, have I always done this, or I noticed this, and get their feedback and see if it's starting to line up with Yeah, I think this is a trait of ADHD. I make these grand plans, but I am terrible at the little details. Or, on the other hand, I'm really great at the little details, but I cannot see the big picture for anything. And then those are the kinds of things it's whether it's your general practitioner, a specialist, a therapist, a coach, whoever you want to go to like these are things that I'm seeing. So, you know, you insert yourself what you're talking about, and if they just say, Oh, you're just tired, or you're just depressed, you have something to give back to them a little bit. Okay, so if then someone is listening who says, like, this is me, like I have ADHD, or maybe they've gone and been evaluated, and everyone agrees, like you have ADHD, what, besides medication, which will kind of just push aside for this moment, because that's well, and maybe you have a comment on it. But what are the next steps that people can try to really start to feel like they're getting a grip on things and to manage their best selves, along with this, this style that their brain is functioning in, I would start with, and I think I mentioned this, really figuring out what the biggest impacts are, so they can either be with some people. It's like a really low hanging fruit. If we work on this one thing, if we work on helping you figure out how to get out the door in the morning with your stuff,
that's huge progress. It's a little but it's huge. Or it could be something really big that is impacting your
your job, your relationships, things like that, looking for something to start with. Where are you going to feel the most success, and something that's kind of easy? I mean, it may not be easy for you. I don't want to make it sound like, oh, because that's what people do to us. Oh, it's easy. Just do this, but finding a small, subtle thing that we try this, and we try making some changes, and we hopefully can see a little success, or even if we don't, then we've learned something, and we can look at another way to do it. I went from education, being in school, going to school, teaching in school, especially teaching secondary, where your life is run by bells. You know it's like when you go to the bathroom, when you eat, when your vacation is you.
And when I left, I had no idea what that whole vast time was going to be like. And so I have done countless little and big experiments trying to figure out what works with me within a day, a normal day, and then making adjustments for not normal days
to work with my distractibility, my energy levels, how much I can take in a day, how much it can take in a week, and that kind of thing. So figuring out what's the most important part to you, and starting off small, because we can also be like, Oh, I'm going to read this book. I'm gonna need this big whole book or this program, you know, that's a lot of money and a lot of time, and then we tend not to follow through on it, because it's so much, but we want to. We think we're going to, we have every intention to do all of it, but if we can bring it down, like something, what is something, you know, so much of it is the brain, kind of thinking about many things at a time that oftentimes we want to try to fix everything at one time, and instead really narrowing down, what if someone doesn't know what to do? You know, if they say like, yeah, I got to get out the door. And I've tried a million things like, I that just doesn't work for me. How do they keep figuring out those tools or those tricks or experiments to solve that thing? You know, I think sometimes women with ADHD will say, like, this is really causing a problem in my life, and I don't know what to do about it. What is the next kind of leveling up? If, if you can come up with something on your own, great, but if not, what other resources are out there to say, like, I don't know what else to try, but this is is not working for me. So I would say talking to someone, whether it's a friend, a coach, a therapist, somebody who at least has some perspective and is willing to look at it openly with you and help you brainstorm. You know, did you ever get out the house? Well, was there ever a time, or is there ever a day? What did you do? Maybe there's things involved in getting out of the house that you've piled on, you've piled all these steps on to getting out of the house that that's slowing you down. And maybe you only really need to do put your shoes on and get your keys and go and not, you know, 17 other things that's slowing you down. You can get somebody else to feed the cat, and you don't have to vacuum and, you know, whatever other things, going back to that idea of having a lot of flexibility in your thinking and a lot of creativity and brainstorming, like even coming up with crazy ideas that maybe not, not be that crazy, you know, and then looking at, is it because you're not getting up, you don't want to get up, you don't actually know what to do. You don't have a structure, neurotypical people seem to look at something and think that it's all easy, whereas there's actually many pieces. Like, I like to talk about, doing the laundry can be hard. People who is not a big deal, they're like, you do the laundry, you go in, you throw it in, you put it in the dryer, you put it away. But actually you've got a plan when you're going to do it, and you've got to sort it, and then you've got to put it in and with the right temperatures and the right soap, and then you have to move it to the dryer, and then you have to remember to take it out of the dryer, and then you have to fold it, and then you have to put it away. And ADHD looks at it in all those steps. And can be like, I don't even know where to start. I'm just going to buy some more T shirts on Amazon, you know. So it can be kind of the same thing, like if you have someone you can trust, like when I think about getting out of the house, this is what I do, and this is what I'm thinking, and they might be able to help you and say, Wait, let's slow down and maybe challenge some of your thoughts, challenge some of your habits, help you come up with other things to do, because if you've been struggling With it, then probably it doesn't have to be professional that you're paying tons of money to, but just somebody who can be like, what if we look at it another way? Yeah, you know, do you think it's very helpful for people with ADHD to talk to neurotypical folks about problem solving, or do you find it's more frustrating that that the person neurotypical is like, Well, why don't you just do it? Just get out of the house. Do you find, do you find that there that we can relate to each other well enough? Or do you find that it's people in the ADHD community who really need to to draw on that understanding of like, my brain is not working the same way that yours
is? I'm gonna say it depends. Yeah. I think it's got to be the right neurotypical person, somebody who understands what's going on and has the care for you to help you work through it and and maybe know some of the tips. But yes, in other ways, talking to somebody else who is neurodivergent can definitely be a bigger help, because, you know, they understand that your brain, and they're also going to have a bunch of great ideas, but we don't always have that option and and sometimes like a logical thing, but I, but I do know also that I get frustrated hearing just do it. And, yeah, you know, it's hard, because if I could, I would, yeah, I'm not difficult.
You've already been telling yourself that, right? Like, okay, this time I'm going to do it. This time I'm going to get it together. Yeah, so a neurotypical person who has some caring and some knowledge and some desire, so that's going to be a special person. And maybe you have that person, you know, there's, there's other things, like, you know, I have a card deck, and there's books and like or videos that you come across something, and if it's somebody you care about, you feel comfortable with a partner, a friend, like, hey, you know how we always joke about how I always do this. Will you just listen to this or watch this? Because this is me. And then that one little way they might be like, Oh, I get it, yeah, okay, yeah, getting that understanding. Instead of being critical or or being like, Gosh, why are you, why do you do things in such weird ways? You know, trying to understand like, oh, that's what you're thinking, Yeah, well, because the assumption is that they're doing it the right way. Or it could be, you could turn it and say, like, Well, why do you do things so weird? Yeah, yeah. I remember listening to a woman talk about ADHD, and remembering what she was like as a child and and she gave kind of what people see on the outside, which was her experience in a classroom, and from the outside, her teacher gave an instruction, and she raised her hand and asked kind of a wild out there question, and her teacher thought she was being disruptive, but then she shared what was happening in her brain, and she said the teacher made this comment, and I had five sequential thoughts about, Oh, I wonder, I wonder if that ever happens. Oh, I wonder why that happened, but when that happened? And then she raised her her hand and asked the question at the end of those thoughts. So actually, she was really engaged in the conversation. But there was just so much going on in her head that to the outside world, it looks like she was just, you know, off in la la land, kind of thinking about something completely random, right? And same thing with maybe the tendency to interrupt sometimes, you know, like I have this thought that is so relevant to what you're saying. And if I sit here and continue, I'm listening to you, but if I continue to listen to you, I'm either focusing on that thought or that thought is gone. And so what do I do? Do I interrupt you? How do I do this? And you know, so we're listening, we're paying attention, but now we have something, and we don't know what to do with it.
Do Hey, it's Mallory. Can you do us a big favor if you're loving the uplift for her podcast, we would be so grateful if you could leave us a rating or review on Apple podcast Spotify, or wherever you listen. It only takes a second, but it helps us reach even more women who may need to hear our message. Click that five star button and let us know what you love about the podcast. Your support means the world to us. Now, back to the show. There's so much understanding to be had. I think there's so much that we need to be talking about this. And just instead of just recognizing, like we've talked about at the beginning of our conversation, of like, what are the ways that this shows up in a woman's life, but really understanding what's under the surface, you know, what's going on inside the brain that creates these things, you know, that creates the procrastination. And just like you explained with the laundry, is someone else might be like, Oh, I got to go do the laundry really quick. And they may be sorting and putting stuff in the washing while their brain is thinking about, you know, whatever they want, while someone else with ADHD may be thinking, Oh, should I do it this way, or should I do it that way? And should I do this? And what's happening over here, and suddenly it feels like just complete paralysis, right? Yeah. And back to, you know, the the women in particular, who are 40 and 50, how have they been missed? Well, if they're remotely successful, they have learned to mask. They have learned what rules in what place to follow. There may be places where they do it less successfully, and they either aren't successful there or they avoid those places, but they've probably found certain places where they're they're good at, just like this is the me that shows up, which can then be a problem if the me that shows up here, and the me that shows up here are different. It's not that, you know there's something wrong with you. You've just you've learned how to be here, and you've learned how to be here. That's also hidden. The other stuff that's going on. Will you explain a little more about what that's like for someone with ADHD? Like, what does that feel like to be masking? Because I think for someone without ADHD, it's like, well, you just learned to play by the rules. Like the rest of us, we're all playing by the rules. There's a difference between learning how to play by the rules and so show up socially appropriate, versus what what you're talking about with masking that's a really good point. Then that's a good question, because I know what I'm talking about, and I assume everybody else does.
I think it's more in a way, of taking on and becoming something else. It's not just like, if you go to a family a formal event and you're a guy, you have to wear a tie, it's, it's becoming, and I'm not even a guy, but like, it's becoming.
Of the guy who wears the tie, or something like that. I don't know where this idea came from, but and also being very hyper aware of what's going on around you, where somebody else may know. Well, in a classroom, you you raise your hand and you do this, and they just do it. But if you're masking, you're also constantly picking up on the cues to what your mask is supposed to be like, like, it's constantly, like, refitting. And so this takes a lot of energy, and this is tiring. You know, people can talk about how, if they've been out, maybe at a social event, or at something where they had to do a lot of that, you know, two people, one, ADHD, one, not the one that's not, it's like, okay, I spent an hour at this party, and, you know, fine, the person with ADHD, maybe I'm so exhausted, I just I got to shut down. I'm overstimulated. I spent so much time trying to figure out all these things for how to be. Yeah, does that? Does that help? I do think it helps. And it sounds like two main things. It sounds like one is almost a deprivation, like you almost have to deprive yourself. It's not just behaving a certain way. It's it's not being yourself to behave a certain way, right? Whereas exactly for someone else to go and sit at a concert and sit still and keep their hands in their lap and clap when it's appropriate may feel like perfectly normal behavior for that moment, and someone else is like, I have to not be doing these five other things in order to do that thing. Kind of going back to that example of the woman sharing her childhood experience, it would be to say, oh, so I have these thoughts in my brain that I have questions about, but I can't ask those questions. I am I'm deprived of that desire to to have that conversation, and instead, I have to be socially appropriate and only ask the right types of questions. So it sounds like some sort of conversation. It's exactly that. It's not just how to be, but how to not be yes, and then the exhaustion that goes with like you're saying, being constantly thinking of these things and aware of these things, and then having to know how to respond to those things and then do that thing to appear socially appropriate or or whatever that task is at the time. Yeah, that does sound exhausting,
right? So I think that's why, then sometimes people with ADHD like being around each other is the people that I really know that I can be we can, we can, we can do whatever we want, and we understand. And if the conversation starts here and it ends up there, it doesn't matter, or somebody brings it back around. Oh, you know what I actually want to talk to you about was, yeah, you know the plant, not this other stuff. Well, so now you help women, predominantly women, I think, right? Yeah, predominantly women. So you're helping women with some of these practical or quick fix strategies. What are some things that you found most beneficial to help women with you've mentioned already, you know, kind of identify, what are your lowest hanging fruit, or the things that are really affecting you the most? And you've talked about, can we brainstorm ways to to support those things that are affecting you. Can you share any other tips or tricks of what we can actually try in those moments? Some of the things that I really like and and they work for me, and they work with many of the people I know, have to do with being able to make small structural changes. So I really like the Pomodoro method for a lot of things. The Pomodoro method is when you work for a certain amount of time and then you take a little break. It's traditionally 25 minutes and five minutes. And so I can use that in lots of ways. I can say I'm going to work for 25 minutes on this big project. I'm going to take a break, and then we just keep making chunks through it. I can take something where maybe I need to pay some bills, and if I'm not on top of myself, this can take all day because I don't want to do it, and it just drag on. But I can say, Okay, I'm going to take 25 minutes. I I can do this in 25 minutes, and I'm just going to do it for 25 minutes, and I put my workout on, and I just do it. And so structuring time like that, and then taking breaks makes me get a drink of water. It makes me move around. Another thing I like to do is the reverse Pomodoro, which is when I really, really don't want to do it. In 25 minutes, I do whatever I want, and for five minutes I'm going to do that. And, you know, neurotypical people, other people might like laugh at it is kind of funny, but maybe for five minutes, or a couple of five minutes, is I got something done. I worked on the dishes for five minutes, and then I went off. I worked on the dishes for five minutes, and then I went off. Believe me, if I could have just done the dishes, I would have just done stupid dishes. So those are some ways really figuring out that helps me structure my time, as opposed to having just this big open time, and then it's into the day, and I didn't do the dishes or anything.
And so I found that with my brain and with a lot of people, I know that variations on this.
Work most of the time, not all the time, but that's something I really think, allowing yourself and taking the time to look at you, to really have that grace. That's something we have such a hard time on about what you're struggling with and asking for help. We can come up with these huge lists, right? Our to do list can be pages long, and then none of it gets done. So especially then, if you work with somebody, you know what can just be crossed off? Because half those things on that list, they don't actually have to be there. They're not going to get done anyway. So what can you cross off? What do you really have to do right now? What can you ask somebody else to do, or maybe pay somebody to do, or trade with somebody to do, you know, things like that. And then things like body doubling, where you work together with somebody, you're working on your own things, and you can even do this on Zoom. And that can be good. Maybe you both need to pay bills or make some doctor's appointments, and you just don't want to do it. So it's like, okay, we're going to sit down for 25 minutes and we're both going to just do this task. And so
things that other people might think, why do you need to do that? Well, if that's what works for you, go for it, do it, and be open and trying. And back to the idea of experiments. Just try something. Worst that can happen is you didn't get it done anyway. Yeah, right. I just love that you're, you know, one of the things you said was, I don't remember which words, but, but giving yourself permission to know yourself. And I think that with this struggle of ADHD, I think there's a lot of like, self deception, right, like I'm just not as good as them, or I'm I should have just done it. Or, you know, the all of these stories that we tell ourselves, and maybe allowing ourselves just to acknowledge, like, huh, my brain isn't working the same way that everyone else's is working. My schedule isn't working well. And then being able to really look at our whole set of circumstances to even say is the way that my job, you know, is structured, is that working best for me is the way we've built our household routine? Is that working best for me the way that I've built my daily routine? Is that working best for me? And maybe just compassionately giving ourselves permission to say, No, it's not. Instead of trying to continue to put ourselves, you know, square peg in a round hole. Instead of trying to figure out solutions that are like, how do I make myself work in the system? Can we say, Do you know what I need a different morning schedule, or I need a different work structure? And some of those things are going to be adaptable, and some of them aren't, but at least just to start with that compassionate looking at yourself, and I think you said, get to know yourself, and get to know what really is the problem that's making you feel the most bogged down or most overwhelmed, or causing the biggest issues in your life. I think some of the greatest ahas and solutions have come from listening to other people, whether it's talking with somebody in person, or reading something, or hearing somebody on a podcast, or whatever, talking about their journey and something they did. Because, yeah, I mean, for Somalia, they say, Oh, that's a great idea. I could do that. Or you just never know when it's going to trip something in your brain, you know, and you're going to then come up with another idea that if somebody asked you, how did you think of that, they wouldn't see the connection. But they don't have to, you know, getting other ideas from other people, I think, can really help you find things to try, yeah, and support, like, I'm not alone. You know, that's one of the things, yeah, not alone, for sure. Are there any other resources that you found that can be helpful, for example, executive function coaching, or any books, or is there anything you can share about as people are starting to learn about this and feel like, gosh, do you know what? I really do need some outside support. Where should they look? So I'm going to recommend a podcast. It's called climbing the walls, and it's from. I had to write it down because I always forget it. It's from,
okay? It doesn't matter. You can find it climbing the walls. Understood.org and a woman, it's fairly recent, about six episodes, and she goes out in search of some answers about kind of what we've been talking about, about women and why they haven't been diagnosed in the pandemic and stuff. And I found that really, really interesting, because it was another one of those situations where she or people would talk about how their ADHD showed up for them. And it was just, it was just so heartening. I also cried,
not in a bad way, but like, we know, when you really feel like you're heard and seen, yeah, validated. And I think that for both, I recommended it to so many people, both, if you think you have ADHD, or you know, or you know somebody with it, it's one of those. It's like, if you care, or it's you listen to this, just because the stories they tell can give you such a great insight into what a lot of us go through and have gone through. I work a lot with with hacks, with visually short solutions, because I'm finding that that's what how I work best, and a lot of the people I know work best. So on my website, I have something.
Things just, I need those quick wins right now, and I think a lot of us do, but if you really, I highly recommend that podcast, just for a general beginning and a lot of ahas. Yeah, I love that. I think too. It just brings so much understanding. I think there's so much misunderstanding, like you were explaining earlier, and I think to hear someone talking and be interrupted, you mentioned that that, like your brain might have to interrupt, but you're not trying to be inconsiderate. You're not not listening to them. In fact, the interruption comes because you were into what they were saying, and it, it, yes, it popped up there. I think, having a sense of understanding where you can say, Oh, she didn't interrupt me because she's not paying attention or because she's being rude. That's just what her brain is doing. That can give us all a little more compassion to say, okay, no big deal. That was That's how her brain worked. Now we can go back to what we were talking about, yeah. And if that is how your brain can work, you can work on it. Times like having posted. So just making a little note, jotting it down. Okay, I've got the main idea here and now I can go back to that when you're done talking
learning those skills. Yeah, one of the things I do recommend to my patients with ADHD is executive function coaching, which is a lot of what you're what you're talking about. Do you have any tips for helping people find someone like you or someone else who can really help sit down and walk them through these steps. I do some of that. I do some executive function and ADHD coaching. I tend to work on shorter bits of time, because I think that works better for all of us. I would find somebody that you really relate to, that you feel like has the same viewpoint as you, I would personally want somebody who probably has ADHD, because I know some of the books, some of the things, are written by people who don't actually have it, and I always find it's kind of better if somebody actually knows what you're going through, but that's much more comforting. You know, coaching is not like therapy. You know, therapy looks at at the past, and those, those other kinds of issues, coaching tends to be more solving the problem right now, looking towards the future. You know, real concrete. So they take the solve different problems, and they can be used hand in hand, very much. Yeah. So that's always a really good thing. I think it depends what you're dealing with the moment. If you're somebody who likes to sit down and talk to somebody, if you have that access, or if you're more of a do it on your own, or kind of person, or you want to read. Or you know, we're all at different places in our journeys, and so at different times, you may find that you need different things. Well, thank you. Is Is there anything else we should be asking anything we're missing in this conversation, or any closing message that you want to share with women who may be feeling discouraged or overwhelmed or not know where to start with this. I would just want to say, take that time. Be quiet and listen to yourself. You know, if something is popping up in your brain, really look at at why and why that's okay and not to be all, you know, positive all the time, but you know, like, there's good things about it, and what can you do, and how can you make this more of a strength, you know, not just the bad things or the the struggles you have, but like, what else is really good and helpful that you're doing well. Jen, thank you so much for coming on. This has been such a valuable conversation and such an important conversation that I hope we'll continue to talk about, will you tell our listeners where they can find you and work with you? Yes, I'm on Instagram, at ADHD, dot holistically. And on my website, you can go and you can sign up and you can get 30 hacks for managing your ADHD 30 really short, quick things that you can do, and get on my mailing list and find out some other things I'm offering, but that's where I share a lot of the information and things that I'm doing and things that I've come across. So yeah, come find me, and if you have questions or anything, I always like to get emails. Wonderful. Well, thank you again for your time. Thank you so much for tuning in to today's episode. A huge thank you to our guests for sharing their insights and time with us. We are grateful for the incredible support from our sponsors and to all of you listening. We couldn't do this without you. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing on your favorite platform. You can find us on our website, uplift for her calm YouTube, Apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen. And if you found value here today, please share this episode with someone who would benefit from it. Leave us a comment or give us a review. It really helps us reach more listeners like you. Thank you for being part of our community. Stay tuned for our next episode. Lastly, this information is for educational purposes only and not intended to be medical advice. You.
